Ted Haggard and homosexuality

[otseng]

Yesterday Ted Haggard confessed that he's been involved in sexual immorality.

The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.

I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I’ve been warring against it all of my adult life. For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach.

Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me.

http://newlifechurch.org/TedHaggardStatement.pdf

Did Haggard handle the whole situation correctly?
How should Christians react to the scandal?
Would this scandal have affects politically, socially, religiously?

[McCulloch]

Did Haggard handle the whole situation correctly?

It would seem less hypocritical if he had not been such an anti-gay activist.

How should Christians react to the scandal?

Not like this:

It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.

Would this scandal have affects politically, socially, religiously?

Politically - Since Haggard has been working hard to curtail gay human rights in his state's upcoming election, it goes without saying that the nature of his public humiliation should reduce the effectiveness of his campaign.
Socially - For Haggard, his family and his church, yes. For everyone else. No. We've all come to expect this kind of scandal from evangelical and other religious leaders from time-to-time. Perhaps the political fallout will effect the social impact and gays will be better accepted, but I doubt it.
Religiously - Not at all. Those without faith, will simply catalogue this along with all of the others. Those with faith, will use some form of the No True Scotsman argument.

[McCulloch]

Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me.

Let's see. Being a Christian and a Pastor, one might think that one of the ways that he sought assistance would have been through prayer. This one example, kind of completely demolishes any Christian argument for the efficacy of prayer.

And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

To be consistent, Ted Haggard, must admit either that God does not answer prayer or that he really did not truly seek assistance. I see no middle ground.

[Vladd44]

Did Haggard handle the whole situation correctly?

No.

He should have come out of the closet, ended the self loathing and found him a man. Well, a man he could admit to, not one by the hour.

How should Christians react to the scandal?

By realizing their own list of "sins" is no better or worse than his. It kills me to see some christians condemn someone they called a brother a few days earlier bc of "sin". Yet they are able to overlook their own smug self righteous attitudes that would be just as much of an affront to their god (if there is one).

Would this scandal have affects politically, socially, religiously?

It may cause a few of the good "moral" republicans out there to stay home in disgust, but overall zealots have a wonderful ability to forget that which is not convienient.

If I were a social conservative, I would be more concerned about the coming split in the republican party. Things are going to come to a head in the coming year.

Fiscal Conservatism and Social Conservatism are simply not compatible.

Fiscal conservatives operate from the idea that govt is not the solution to the problem.

Socials believe that govt must foist their "moral" guide onto everyone else.

It cant be both ways, either the govt isnt the answer, or it is.

If it is, it is time for the good Social Conservatives out there to embrace socialism and expect govt to make all of our decisions for us.

Haggard is just one more example of why trying to implement social changes via law is a failed strategy. If your gods laws were not enough to keep him from entertaining a penis, what can you expect your government to be able to do?

[otseng]

Did Haggard handle the whole situation correctly?
Haggard should have been honest when the scandal broke out instead of lying and covering it up. But, I guess that's the MO of any high profile leader to first attack the accuser and deny any wrongdoing.

How should Christians react to the scandal?
I think this would be a great opportunity for New Life Church to have an open and honest dialogue about homosexuality. Here is a person you would least expect to engage in homosexual sex falling into it. And if he's prone to it, what does it say of the "average" people? Perhaps the church can even host a national discussion about it.

The Christian tactic of addressing homosexuality by attacking homosexuality and making homosexuals hide is obviously not working. I don't think there should be an out all condemnation of homosexuality. However, I'm not advocating an all out embracement of it either. But, there has got to be some middle ground where all parties can come to the table and agree on some things.

One thing is that Christians have got to be able to figure out how to love and accept homosexuals without being shocked and shunning them. What if Haggard had confessed to his elder board a year ago that he was engaging in homosexual sex? How would they react? My guess is not too positively. But, if it could've been addressed in a constructive way, I think it would've prevented letting the entire world know about it.

Christians have got to go beyond simply saying, "love the sinner and hate the sin". They've got to demonstrate it. Concentrate less on de-homosexualizing gays, but instead serve them unconditionally. Be on the forefront of caring for AIDS victims. Standing up for them when they are the victims of discrimination.

Would this scandal have affects politically, socially, religiously?
Politically, I think this will be a setback for anti-gay legislation. It exposes the hypocrisy of one of the leaders of the anti-gay cause to be gay himself.

Socially, it shows that homosexuals can be at all levels at any place. Even those who condemn it the most could even be a closet gay himself.

Religiously, I'm hoping that this would spur honest dialogue about homosexuality and motivate Christians to change their tactic in addressing homosexuality.

[McCulloch]

Through the years, I’ve sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me.

Did Haggard handle the whole situation correctly?
Haggard should have been honest when the scandal broke out instead of lying and covering it up. But, I guess that's the MO of any high profile leader to first attack the accuser and deny any wrongdoing.

Let's see. Being a Christian and a Pastor, one might think that one of the ways that he sought assistance would have been through prayer. This one example, kind of completely demolishes any Christian argument for the efficacy of prayer.

To be consistent, Ted Haggard, must admit either that God does not answer prayer or that he really did not truly seek assistance. I see no middle ground.

I'm interested in your response to this issue. Is Ted Haggard still lying (saying that he sought assistance when he did not seek the assistance that would have really helped him) OR is prayer not effective?

[micatala]

The Christian tactic of addressing homosexuality by attacking homosexuality and making homosexuals hide is obviously not working. I don't think there should be an out all condemnation of homosexuality. However, I'm not advocating an all out embracement of it either. But, there has got to be some middle ground where all parties can come to the table and agree on some things.

Amen!

I think it is fairly clear that Christians are not going to come to any kind of consensus soon on whether all gay sex is sinful or not, and related moral issues. However, I do think that otseng's approach of trying to find some common ground on how to address homosexuality is a good thing. I would make a few initial suggestions.

1. Speak the truth. So much of what is put out there by those who have concerns about homosexuality is simply not true. A lot more is in the realm of unsubstantiated opinion presented as incontrovertible fact. This ultimately only undermines the credibility of those making the case, and even Christianity in general.

2. Allow that believers can disagree on even important and contentious issues without there necessarily being a 'right' and 'wrong' side. See Romans 14.

3. On the other side, I think it would help if those who support gay rights, especially from a Christian perspective, have some understanding that they are promoting a view point that goes against long-standing teaching. Yes, I believe this teaching is in error, but it does not mean that those who have concerns about homosexuality should be condemned.

4. Separate the issue of Christian doctrine from the larger issue of civil law. Just because something is immoral from a Christian standpoint does not mean it needs to be illegal. I don't think most Christians would support making the first and second commandments the law of the land.



On the Haggard situation, my reaction is that it is not the 'sexual immorality' that is the problem, but the hypocrisy. However, I have some sympathy for him because we have, in the church, put homosexuals in an untenable position. We have placed an uncarryable burden on them that we who are not gay would not be able to carry ourselves. If you put people in a no-win situation, is it any wonder that they fail?

[otseng]

Let's see. Being a Christian and a Pastor, one might think that one of the ways that he sought assistance would have been through prayer. This one example, kind of completely demolishes any Christian argument for the efficacy of prayer.

To be consistent, Ted Haggard, must admit either that God does not answer prayer or that he really did not truly seek assistance. I see no middle ground.

I'm interested in your response to this issue. Is Ted Haggard still lying (saying that he sought assistance when he did not seek the assistance that would have really helped him) OR is prayer not effective?

Neither.

I do not believe that God has to answer all our prayers. Especially in a way that we expect him to.

Paul prayed for God to remove his "thorn". But God did not remove it.

2Cr 12:7-8 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

But, God had a reason for not answering his prayer. And that was to show that power can come through weakness.

2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Likewise, even though Haggard prayed for God to remove his homosexual inclinations all his life and he still has it, I think God has another purpose. My guess is that he was to be sympathetic to homosexuals since he himself was a closet homosexual. Instead, he went totally opposite and missed what God wanted him to do. Who knows, he might even fulfill this purpose in the future now that he's been exposed.

[McCulloch]

Is Ted Haggard still lying (saying that he sought assistance when he did not seek the assistance that would have really helped him) OR is prayer not effective?

Neither.

Thank you for pointing out my false dilemma. Of course there is a third possibility, homosexuality is not sinful.

I would be interested in the response from someone who categorically rejects this third option.

[Vladd44]

Haggard is just one more example of why trying to implement social changes via law is a failed strategy. If your gods laws were not enough to keep him from entertaining a p e n i s , what can you expect your government to be able to do?

I am curious why the word p e n i s was editted.

I am unable to search the entire site, but via google, I found at least two other threads that used the word.

Nex time just go ahead and delete the entire post, no reason to half-ass censor.

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?p=67498
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... start=1310

I cant see how the word can be more offensive than the actions of a lying meth addicted homosexual pastor to most christians.