The current Christian Church

[Allie]

Firstly, let me say like I always do, that I am very young. Please be patient with me, as I am quite new at debating and make mistakes.

Here we go:

The perfect church. I've been thinking about this for a while, and would like to hear your ideas. Keep in mind that we are talking a Christian church, and while I respect all of your views, for this thread we are talking Christianity.

I didn't post on the Christian-only board because I would like to hear the non-Theist opinions.

Questions for debate:
1. Do you think the church is currently set up in the best possible way? If not, how would you change it?
2. Do you think any vital part of Christianity is missing in the church today?

For example, I think it would be much better to have the church split into groups. Everyone is on a different level, so the more advanced Christians would go and delve deep into the Bible and into the details, while the new Christians would hear more of the basic message. There could be many groups, with certain teachers specializing in certain types of teaching--I think that would be wonderful.

Also, I think churches today are missing something incredibly vital--prayer! We won't feel the power of prayer if we don't pray! At my church, at least, there is no deep prayer. I think that is extremely important.

With that said, go ahead and post your opinions! I'm excited.

[JoeyKnothead]

As an atheist, I think the perfect church would be one that realizes the Bible is full of inconsistencies, many of its claims can't be proven, and should be approached as such. Seems like where folks believe the Bible to be literal, they tend to be a bit koo-koo for cocoa puffs. Often these literalists are very dogmatic, and see things as either good or eeeeeevvvvvviiiiiilllllll. So, I'd have folks realize the Bible as a story, and not as the inerrant word of a God that can't be shown to exist.

[McCulloch]

The original first-century church had all things in common. The perfect church, in my opinion, would put into practice the idea of brotherhood. The perfect church would have no poverty and no riches. No individual would need insurance, they would have confidence that in time of need, the rest of the members of the body would provide.

No one would go to church any more than you go to family. The church would see itself as a body and the members would consider the church something that they are a part of, not something that they go to.

Don't use prayer as an excuse to not be active. Read what Jesus says about prayer. Pray, if you must, briefly and privately. Then get on with the things you need to do. Doers of the word not just hearers.

Vital parts of Christianity currently missing from many churches: Real Meaningful sense of Brotherhood. Churches give lip service to the idea that they are a brotherhood. But when the tire hits the pavement, members will do for their real family more that they would for other church members.

If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.

And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.

But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

How many churches do you know that really practice this teaching?

[Allie]

Thank you, joey and McCulloch.

How many churches do you know that really practice this teaching?

None. And that's the problem! I completely agree with you on the brother/sisterhood camaraderie, too--I think the church should feel like family, even though it doesn't. This is the best of being Christian.. and I don't see it anywhere.

However, I think prayer is vital. I'm not saying we should pray instead of acting, but I think there should be a lot of both. Some things need to be prayed for, and some things need acted on.

Every time I think about it, this strong passion in me gets roused. I want so badly for this to happen... It's a possibility, too. I just have to visualize it.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Questions for debate:
1. Do you think the church is currently set up in the best possible way? If not, how would you change it?
2. Do you think any vital part of Christianity is missing in the church today?

G'day Allie.

I think the (christian) church is schismatic for starters. So "best" would become a redundant term when describing it.

I wouldn't change it. It can stay the way it is as far as I am concerned. What would be of benefit from my perspective would be if there was no religion/church.

Is there "any vital part of Christianity" ???

What I personally see "missing" within the christian community/church, is that there is a lack of truth, joy, love. This is an inherent thing as the religious text that is followed/believed, the bible, also has a lack of these three aspects.

Below is something that I wrote once that describes much of the beliefs that I have .....


I BELIEVE IN GOD !!!


The God that I believe in loves all in creation, for God created all of creation.

The God that I believe in is able to communicate with all of creation all of the time, neither requiring others to do so on behalf of, nor having a book written about God by others.

The God that I believe in is free of any need, or even thought, of being worshiped, for the God that I believe in is perfection and requires nothing from any other source.

The God that I believe in is ALL THAT IS, LOVE, life itself manifested; L-I-F-E = Love In Form Evolving.

LOVE is where we all come from, for LOVE is ALL THAT IS, and thus we are LOVE itself in physical form evolving. For we are part of The Creator, God, ALL THAT IS, LOVE, and will always be so, in all ways, and therefore, we are The Creator, experiencing ourselves in the here and now through mind, body, soul, as individuated aspects within that which is infinite, ALL THAT IS, LOVE.

The God that I believe in has the power to create with thought, action, word, through the trinity of mind, body, soul. For in the beginning was the word, the tool of soul, that manifested mind and body as the dual creative aspects of experience within the realm of here and now. Thus one, soul, became two, mind and body, and that which is ONE multiplied itself, creating two so that the trinity would be created, for 1 + 2 begets 3.

The God that I believe is re-presented as a triune in all aspects. This can easily be seen for those that have eyes to see, for we have;

Soul / Body / Mind
Word / Action / Thought
Present / Past / Future
Everywhere / Here /There
Love / Joy / Truth
I / LOVE / You


Others have named these three things; Father, Son, Holy Ghost; conscious, subconscious, super-conscious; id, ego, super ego; energy, matter, antimatter. Whatever name that you give them, they are still three parts of the whole, the trinity of ALL THAT IS.

The God that I believe in, is individuated in one aspect of infinity infinitely, expressing and experiencing through the trinity of self, that which is itself, LOVE, and having focused upon that one aspect of infinity, thus created a perspective, an angle (angel), to view itself in all of its perfection. For the God that I believe in is perfection itself, and thus by definition of perfection, creates perfectly ALL THAT IS, moment to moment, forever and always, in all ways.

For those that have ears, hear now the word made manifest.

I am the God that I believe in.

I am the Son, the Soul, the Word, Love, Present Everywhere. I am the Source Of Unconditional Love; S-O-U-L. The Holy Ghost is the Thought that has entered the Mind to share the Truth that There will always be a Future, for I am infinite. The Father is the Action of the Body to bring Here the Joy of the Son, the wellspring of all that I am, for I AM ALL I AM, and Now you know that I LOVE You. For LOVE is Who I Am and Who You Are !!!

We have never been separate, for we are ONE, ALL THAT IS, LOVE. There is no requirement for us to DO anything, for we are not a doing, we are a BEING. We are BEING an individuated aspect of ALL THAT IS for the expressive purpose of experiencing ourselves here and now. For we understood that knowing ourselves as ALL THAT IS did not allow us to experience ourselves as ALL THAT IS, and that to BE ourselves in an individuated form would allow us to experience ourselves through our relationship to each and every individuated aspect of ourselves. Thus we understood that temperature could be expressed as hot and cold, height as tall or short, BE-CAUSE we could cause this to happen through our self-realisation of our relationship between each individuated aspect of ALL THAT IS, ourselves.

Now you understand !!!

When you open Pandora's box, your voice box, you decide what it is that escapes to BE expressed and experienced. For I say unto you, you are God making yourself manifest and your WORD will become flesh. This is the truth of the WORD, the soul's tool, and your thoughts and actions / mind and body, will align themselves with your WORD as the earth aligns itself in the heavens, as night follows day and day follows night.


WHAT WOULD LOVE DO NOW ?

There is no desire,
That's greater for me,
Than to inspire,
LOVE eternally.

For I have been gifted,
With LOVE to speak,
And been uplifted,
To knowledge that I seek.

This knowledge is true,
It leads to JOY,
A gift for me and you,
With LOVE to employ.

For LOVE is ALL THAT IS,
And will always show you how,
When your question is,
"What would LOVE do now ?".

[McCulloch]

Questions for debate:
1. Do you think the church is currently set up in the best possible way? If not, how would you change it?
2. Do you think any vital part of Christianity is missing in the church today?

I think the (christian) church is schismatic for starters. So "best" would become a redundant term when describing it.

I suppose there is some danger of equivocation when discussing the church. Are we discussing a local collection of Christian believers? Are we discussing a particular denomination? Or are we discussing the so-called church invisible, the set of all believers? Christians, on the whole, have betrayed their founding principles by separating into sects and factions.

I BELIEVE IN GOD !!!

Really? What do you mean by the word God? Is what you mean similar to what others mean, or do you have your own special definition? If your definition is special, why not use a different word, thereby avoiding confusion with those others who have already defined what the word God means?

The God that I believe in is able to communicate with all of creation all of the time, neither requiring others to do so on behalf of, nor having a book written about God by others.

God does not communicate to me, therefore the God that you believe in does not exist.

LOVE is where we all come from, for LOVE is ALL THAT IS, and thus we are LOVE itself in physical form evolving.

That is all nice and feel-good, but I have no idea what it means. Love is not a physical form. Love is not all that is. Really.

The God that I believe in has the power to create with thought, action, word, through the trinity of mind, body, soul. For in the beginning was the word, the tool of soul, that manifested mind and body as the dual creative aspects of experience within the realm of here and now. Thus one, soul, became two, mind and body, and that which is ONE multiplied itself, creating two so that the trinity would be created, for 1 + 2 begets 3.

One multiplied by itself is one, not three. Perhaps you need to tweak your metaphor.

The God that I believe is re-presented as a triune in all aspects. This can easily be seen for those that have eyes to see, for we have;

Soul / Body / Mind

I disagree.

Word / Action / Thought

I disagree. Word or intent is thought. Thought is neurological activity, which is action.

Present / Past / Future

I'll leave that one to bernee.

Everywhere / Here /There

Beatles anyone? Here and there, presumably are part of everywhere. Thus these three nouns do not represent three separate but related things.

[...]

Now you understand !!!

No. Your word salad makes no sense at all.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Questions for debate:
1. Do you think the church is currently set up in the best possible way? If not, how would you change it?
2. Do you think any vital part of Christianity is missing in the church today?

I think the (christian) church is schismatic for starters. So "best" would become a redundant term when describing it.

I suppose there is some danger of equivocation when discussing the church. Are we discussing a local collection of Christian believers? Are we discussing a particular denomination? Or are we discussing the so-called church invisible, the set of all believers? Christians, on the whole, have betrayed their founding principles by separating into sects and factions.

... there are reported to be over 38,000 Christian denominations ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... ominations

There are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world.

http://christianity.about.com/od/denomi ... ntoday.htm

I've also seen reports of their being over 43,000 different denominations of christianity. With such schisms, it can hardly be defined as a single entity, especially as the apparent 'Word of God' is also split into numerous versions.

I BELIEVE IN GOD !!!

Really? What do you mean by the word God? Is what you mean similar to what others mean, or do you have your own special definition? If your definition is special, why not use a different word, thereby avoiding confusion with those others who have already defined what the word God means?

The definition is contained within what I wrote.

Which 'God' is it that has been defined ???

Is the definition 'set in stone' by one religion only ???

Or are you saying that I have to bow down to peer group pressure as to a set definition of some group as to the meaning of this particular word ???

Surely having explained my interpretation of the usage of the word within the content of what I have written clarifies the context, intent and purpose behind the use of the word.

The God that I believe in is able to communicate with all of creation all of the time, neither requiring others to do so on behalf of, nor having a book written about God by others.

God does not communicate to me, therefore the God that you believe in does not exist.

God, LOVE, ALL THAT IS, The Sum Totality of Life, is in constant communication with you.

Do you hear life happening around you ???

Do you see life happening around you ???

Do your other senses function in perceiving life around you ???

You constantly receive communications that are interpreted through your physical senses. The question is not whether ALL THAT IS, Life, speaks to you, but whether you are listening.

LOVE is where we all come from, for LOVE is ALL THAT IS, and thus we are LOVE itself in physical form evolving.

That is all nice and feel-good, but I have no idea what it means. Love is not a physical form. Love is not all that is. Really.

Why ???

Because you say so ???

Would the love that you have for another move you to act to save their life ???

If so, then love gave you the form of movement/action.

The God that I believe in has the power to create with thought, action, word, through the trinity of mind, body, soul. For in the beginning was the word, the tool of soul, that manifested mind and body as the dual creative aspects of experience within the realm of here and now. Thus one, soul, became two, mind and body, and that which is ONE multiplied itself, creating two so that the trinity would be created, for 1 + 2 begets 3.

One multiplied by itself is one, not three. Perhaps you need to tweak your metaphor.

Hahahaha, it wasn't a mathematical sum to be done.

By creating mind and body it multiplied the perspectives of itself, the sum totality, thus from creating two perspectives in addition to it's original perspective, it now had three perspectives of itself.

The God that I believe is re-presented as a triune in all aspects. This can easily be seen for those that have eyes to see, for we have;

Soul / Body / Mind

I disagree.

I agree that you disagree.

Word / Action / Thought

I disagree. Word or intent is thought. Thought is neurological activity, which is action.

Have you ever hit your thumb with a hammer ???

Did you think about the words that you said after the event before you spoke them ???

Or did you speak (swear even) without thinking of choosing to do so ???

Present / Past / Future

I'll leave that one to bernee.

Everywhere / Here /There

Beatles anyone? Here and there, presumably are part of everywhere. Thus these three nouns do not represent three separate but related things.

Ahhh, that's the point, everything is related.

You could alter the term 'Everywhere' to 'That Which Surrounds Here And There'.

[...]

Now you understand !!!

No. Your word salad makes no sense at all.

Maybe not for you, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe you have chosen not to understand because you do not like "salad".

[McCulloch]

I've also seen reports of their being over 43,000 different denominations of christianity. With such schisms, it can hardly be defined as a single entity,

We are in complete agreement.

especially as the apparent 'Word of God' is also split into numerous versions.

Significantly fewer than the number of sects.

The definition [of God] is contained within what I wrote.

I must have missed it. I saw a whole lot of descriptions but nothing defining the God entity.

Which 'God' is it that has been defined ???

Try a dictionary.

Or are you saying that I have to bow down to peer group pressure as to a set definition of some group as to the meaning of this particular word ???

Language is used to communicate. Inherent in that effort, words must mean the same to the speaker as the listener. If you are using a word in a non-standard way, it might be prudent to use a different word.

Do you hear life happening around you ???

Do you see life happening around you ???

Do your other senses function in perceiving life around you ???

You constantly receive communications that are interpreted through your physical senses. The question is not whether ALL THAT IS, Life, speaks to you, but whether you are listening.

Did you change the subject from Love to Life?

LOVE is ALL THAT IS, and thus we are LOVE itself in physical form evolving.

Would the love that you have for another move you to act to save their life ???

If so, then love gave you the form of movement/action.

How does this show that Love is all that is?

This can easily be seen for those that have eyes to see, for we have;

Soul / Body / Mind

I disagree. [/quote]

I agree that you disagree.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that we all have Soul, Body and Mind?

[JoeyKnothead]

The Perfect Expression Of Religious Belief
Jah live
Children yeah
Jah Jah live children yeah
Jah Live
Children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah

The truth is an offence
But not a sin
Is he who laugh last,children
Is he who win
Is a foolish dog
Bark at the flying bird
One sheep must learn,children
To respect the shepherd

Jah live
Children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah
Jah Live
Children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah

Fool say in their heart
Rasta your God is dead
But I and I know, Jah Jah
Dread it shall be Dreader Dread

Jah Live children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah
Jah Live children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah

Let jah arise
Now that the enemies are scattered
Let Jah arise
The enemies,the enemies are scattered
Jah Live children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah
Jah live Children yeah
Jah Jah Live children yeah
- Bob Marley

[oldagg]

Simply, it is the ONE we find in the NEW TESTAMENT. Which means that most churches today are way out of wack!

Here's what I always tell people. Read the 4 Gospels - then you will know all about the FOUNDER of the Church. Then read the apistles Acts - Jude. In there you will find everything you need to know about the church: its name, its organization, its purpose, its methods, its responsibilities - everything. Next, start looking in your town for a congregation that looks like, works like, and teaches like what you just read (without adding to or subtracting from). When you find it - join yourself to it. If you can't find it, and in most towns you can't, START ONE. Remember, you are starting a local congregation not a denomination - you can do it!

Skip The Revelation - that's a whole other thread!

Oldagg