Need a comeback, please

[Lainey]

I have a close friend who's a True Christian(TM). She's the reason I ended up here. I started out looking for a comeback to something she said to me, and I wound up learning a ton of stuff about religion, evolution, philosophy, history, etc. In fact, I've been lurking on this site for awhile now, and I just decided to actually join and start posting today. I would have to say that in the last few months, when I started my search, my knowledge on these subjects has grown by leaps and bounds. I feel like it's outpaced her understanding of these subjects. Anyway, here's what she said to me:

"I sometimes feel angry at God for not letting my friends into Heaven, like you and (my boyfriend) and (a guy she "loves" but "can't" date because he's not a Christian)."

She is my friend, so I don't want to be mean to her, but that really ticked me off! What would you guys say to that?

Also, I haven't been talking to my Christian friends too much about my research, and she's been away at school for much of it. So, she doesn't know. She talks to me about religious matters as though I couldn't possibly know anything about such things, heathen that I am. And sometimes she preaches at me. Now I feel like it will be harder to keep my feelings to myself when she treats me as though I don't know anything about the Bible, Christianity, religion, etc. Especially know that I can identify things she said before that display a lack of understanding on her part (for example, she's used the circular argument on me: "How do you know the Bible's true? Because it says it is!" and also told me that God didn't create evil, and all the bible's are the same, and she's used the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument, and she's said that the Bible translators were "very careful" to keep the Bible translations true to the original, etc.)

Anyway, sorry this is so long. But after all, it was all of this that was the catalyst for my search for the truth (which I despair of ever finding until I'm dead...if then).

So, your thoughts, please?

[Vianne]

I guess I'm not as "saved" as she would like. She actually doesn't know what I believe. She's never asked.

Well, bingo. You may not speak to her much any more, but if you do happen to wind up in a conversation either with her or someone similar, you could employ some of the same tactics that evangelical Christians do: deliberately steer the converation towards matters of religion/spirituality and use that as an opportunity to share what you believe.

Your friend: Yeah, it's really terrible that so many people are going to hell and don't know it.

You: You know what's really interesting, that I read? The original hell the Jews believed in was nothing like the modern day idea of hell. It wasn't fiery or full of pain, it was just the shadowy underworld that all dead souls went to.

Your friend: In the Bible it says it's a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You: In the New Testment, yes. But did you know the word they translate as "hell" in the Old and New Testaments are actually different words? The original Jewish underworld was "Sheol", while the one discussed in the New Testament was "Hades", which was actually the Roman version of the underworld. Isn't that bizarre? That's why I really don't believe in hell. If the God of the Christians is the same God as the ones the Jews worshipped, why didn't he tell them about hell or warn them that they needed to be saved from it? Did he just invent hell for Christians after Jesus was crucified, sort of like an afterthought? It doesn't make sense.

Your friend: You're buying into lies. Hell is real and it's a terrible place.

You: And yet, there's even another word they translated as hell: Gehenna. But that wasn't an underworld, it was the trash dump outside the city, where they burned the bodies of criminals who didn't warrant a real burial. That's why when he warned them to avoid that place, he was telling them to stay out of trouble and not get tangled up with the law. I didn't know that, did you? Hey, did you want to go to that Christian bookstore with me this weekend, where we can check out a Catholic Bible? I've heard there's some really uplifting stuff in the book of Wisdom.

Feel free to modify this, of course, but you get the idea. You'll be able to tell if she's ready for it or not. Did you say this girl was twenty-five? She's certainly old enough to be exploring new ways of thinking.

He may have told her about the Council of Nicea--I'm not sure.

I would suspect not. I never heard of it until I left Christianity all together. I think it might be uncomfortable to think of the Bible as having been assembled by people, rather than delivered whole and As Is into the hands of the apostles.

However, there is a part in the Bible where God says he creates good AND evil:

Quote:
Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


In my translation("The Message"), however, it doesn't quite say the same thing. It says:

Quote:
"I form light and create darkness, I make harmonies and create discords. I, God, do all these things."


Quote:
Bibles are not all the same. Check out the Catholic Bible, for one thing. They have a few extra books thrown in there. If your friend doesn’t know that, she’s not doing too well!


She didn't know that. I told her. She didn't believe me.

Depending on where this friendship is at and how receptive your friend is, a Bible study might not be a bad thing. Leviticus and Numbers are great books if you want to point out areas where God orders the Israelites to wipe out cities and kill civilizations whole (i.e. creating discord, as it were).

But then again, Catholics aren't "True Christians(TM)."

I've always found that hysterical. Protestants are the rebellious offshoots of the original church, which was, yes, Catholic.

You'll just have to play it by ear. Christianity may be the best faith for her particular level of spiritual development. It can be terrifying to think that what you've been told from birth isn't necessarily true. Of course, it can also be exhilarating. Who knows, maybe you'll get her to start exploring.