Need a comeback, please

[Lainey]

I have a close friend who's a True Christian(TM). She's the reason I ended up here. I started out looking for a comeback to something she said to me, and I wound up learning a ton of stuff about religion, evolution, philosophy, history, etc. In fact, I've been lurking on this site for awhile now, and I just decided to actually join and start posting today. I would have to say that in the last few months, when I started my search, my knowledge on these subjects has grown by leaps and bounds. I feel like it's outpaced her understanding of these subjects. Anyway, here's what she said to me:

"I sometimes feel angry at God for not letting my friends into Heaven, like you and (my boyfriend) and (a guy she "loves" but "can't" date because he's not a Christian)."

She is my friend, so I don't want to be mean to her, but that really ticked me off! What would you guys say to that?

Also, I haven't been talking to my Christian friends too much about my research, and she's been away at school for much of it. So, she doesn't know. She talks to me about religious matters as though I couldn't possibly know anything about such things, heathen that I am. And sometimes she preaches at me. Now I feel like it will be harder to keep my feelings to myself when she treats me as though I don't know anything about the Bible, Christianity, religion, etc. Especially know that I can identify things she said before that display a lack of understanding on her part (for example, she's used the circular argument on me: "How do you know the Bible's true? Because it says it is!" and also told me that God didn't create evil, and all the bible's are the same, and she's used the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument, and she's said that the Bible translators were "very careful" to keep the Bible translations true to the original, etc.)

Anyway, sorry this is so long. But after all, it was all of this that was the catalyst for my search for the truth (which I despair of ever finding until I'm dead...if then).

So, your thoughts, please?

[McCulloch]

Hi Lainey,

My wife grew up in Calgary. Went to Winston Churchhill. Welcome

She is my friend, so I don't want to be mean to her, but that really ticked me off! What would you guys say to that?

Don't get angry. Your friend is immature and a biggot. That is just the way she is. It is easier to take when you just start to expect that kind of behaviour. I expect that she is young. I hope she will mature.

Don't endanger your friendship over your differences of religion. If she really needs the comfort of her faith then you will not be able to convince her. When she comes to the point of being able to honestly question it, then your study and knowledge can be a help.

[Lainey]

Thanks, McCulloch! I grew up in the Crowsnest Pass, which is about 2.5 hours from here. I've lived here for-OMG-9 years! (I can't believe it's been that long!)

You know, I read the definition of bigot yesterday, and I thought of her. Yes, she's 25, so fairly young.

The thing that strikes me is she seems to believe whatever her Dad tells her. I sometimes wonder if she believes it herself, deep down. Sometimes she seems very dissatisfied about something, and she's always researching new diseases or disorders she might have, and I can't explain it but it's always seemed to me to be connected to her beliefs.

You're right, I don't want to ruin my friendship with her. But what do I say? She talks about religion alot! When you say something, you'll most likely get, "Well, the Bible says..."

Also, when we watch TV, if something she doesn't agree with comes on, she'll roll her eyes and snort at the TV, which I can deal with....but then one time we were watching David Blaine (the magician), and he had just "read" some woman's mind, and the woman on TV said, "Oh my gosh, how did you know that?!" and my friend yelled at the TV, "Because an evil spirit told him!" ](*,) I have trouble keeping my mouth shut at that level of superstition...

[McCulloch]

Do not hide your disbelief from her but do not thrust it at her either. When she uses "the Bible said ..." be able to answer with "the Bible also said not to mix different types of fiber" or "the Bible also said to commit genocide" or "That really does not make sense, does it?". But try to avoid the long drawn out debate until you know that she is ready to reason openly. Avoid personal anger (yours or hers). Know when to drop the subject.

[Bugmaster]

"I sometimes feel angry at God for not letting my friends into Heaven, like you and (my boyfriend) and (a guy she "loves" but "can't" date because he's not a Christian)."

Well, I'd say, "don't feel bad, I'm aiming for Nirvana anyway, not Heaven" :-) Ok ok that was a bit glib, but I really can't come up with anything that won't start a long, involved debate.

[The Happy Humanist]

"I sometimes feel angry at God for not letting my friends into Heaven, like you and (my boyfriend) and (a guy she "loves" but "can't" date because he's not a Christian)."

You: "It does seem a bit unfair, doesn't it?"
She: "You bet it does."
You: "Will you be able to enjoy yourself fully in heaven knowing I'm not there?"
She: "Probably not."
You: "Then how could it be heaven?"
She: "Uh-h-h-h-h..."
You" "Hey, let's watch Oprah!"

[micatala]

Ooops! Sorry, just realized I wandered into the A Room and I probably shouldn't be here. . My apologies. I will assign myself 50 demerits as penance.

[QED]

Ooops! Sorry, just realized I wandered into the A Room and I probably shouldn't be here. . My apologies. I will assign myself 50 demerits as penance.

Hey, don't give it a second thought I don't suppose I should be here either

I hope Lainey keeps us updated on how things go. I thought THH's imaginary conversation was a good one. I feel there ought to be exceptional cases that could be instructive... something like children being bought up by wolves, or being the only survivors of a shipwreck on a remote island... how could growing up in ignorance of Jesus justifiably lead to eternal damnation? Maybe not.

If I slip into a theistic mindset for a moment or two the one thing that cries out to my reasoning engine is the problem of evil. Why, if there is an all loving God, do earthquakes like the recent one in Asia flatten hundreds of small children indiscriminately beneath tons of concrete? Any God which has the power to answer a prayer or create a miracle must be slipping-up on the job if he lets such hideous things happen over and over again. Something's surely wrong with the description of God/Jesus as presented in the bible when people are so readily snagged by the mechanisms of the world.

[HannaH]

First of all, I know exactly where you're coming from. All of my old friends from my last school (which was a private Christian school) all think I'm going to hell, and it's hard having a relationship with someone who thinks you're going to burn for all of eternity.

If she says that she gets angry with God, then there's a good chance that there's a part of her that is reasonable. Try to appeal to this side, don't get personal (saying stuff like "you just mimic your dad" isn't going to get you anywhere, especially if she accepts everything he says as true) and try to stay unemotional (getting angry or spiteful is not helpful).

Another approach is to avoid talking about religion. If you're uncomfortable talking about it, or if you don't like what she's telling you, then tell her you'd rather not talk about it or hear it. Please say it as civilly as possible. I know that it's rather easier said than done, believe me, but it's better than putting up with it.

[Lainey]

Hmmm...I have a little update.

I came across "Larry King Live" a few weeks ago when he was interviewing three psychics (one was Sylvia Browne, one was a pompous little twit who appeared to have been coddled too much as a child by his mommy-anyway I've never heard of him before, and one was some woman who would ask a silly question of the skeptics and then look all smug when she thought she'd made a point-I've never heard of her before either), and two skeptics-one was a Rabbi, and one was Dr. (I think?) Brian Farha (if memory serves).

So anyway, we were at my boyfriend's house at the time, watching the show, and I, of course, was on the side of the skeptics, and I was commenting on how they're the ones who are actually doing good work and trying to help people, yet no one who called in to the show had a good word for them. And of course, anytime one of the psychics started making silly claims that are obviously not true, I commented on how what they were saying was complete crap, and they've never proven a thing.

So she says, "Well, there ARE people who can do that, but I don't think it's a good thing."

So I says, "Well, James Randi has been offering a million dollars to anyone who can prove that they have psychic abilities, and he's been doing it for a long time. So far, no one has proven it, which would seem to indicate that there AREN'T people who can do that!"

She just sort of shrugged...

Edited to remove a rant that I'm embarrassed to have written in the first place, unrelated to the topic at hand...