How to debate our Christian friends

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Blastcat
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How to debate our Christian friends

Post #1

Post by Blastcat »

Hi, ye of little faith !

I'm starting to write down reminders for myself as to how to debate Christians in here.. I've been doing these "debates" ( maybe more in the way of full frontal attacks, but bear with me a bit ) for almost two years now.

I should have learned something by now...

Here is my very initial list of "things to keep in mind" when I am blasting them away with my categorical ) pathological ? )l imperatives.

Blasting the categories, yo !

1. Refrain from making claims, theists make a lot on their own.. Keep the burden of the proof on them.
2. Don't tell .. Ask.
3. Remember the outsider's test for faith.
4. Bring it back to point.
5. Bring it back to epistemology.
6. ... ( not there yet )
So, I'm looking for great suggestions that have worked for you in the past.

How SHOULD we debate Christians?
Help me out with that list, will yaz?

It might get to be a very long list.. that would be ok.
I love long lists.


:)

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RonE
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Post #11

Post by RonE »

[Replying to post 9 by Neatras]

Oklahoma says it on their license plates "Oklahoma is OK", not great, but ok.

:P
*"On the other hand, we have people who are believers who are so completely sold on the literal interpretation of the first book of the Bible that they are rejecting very compelling scientific data about the age of the earth and the relatedness of living beings." Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D.
*The Atheist has the comfort of no fears for an afterlife and lacks any compulsion to blow himself up.
* Science flies to you the moon.... religion flies you into buildings.
* Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

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Post #12

Post by wiploc »

Neatras wrote: [Replying to post 8 by wiploc]

As an Okie, I resent that statement. It implies that Oklahoma's only passable because you'd be there. I'll have you know my hometown's High School band has won Grand Nationals several times in the past two decades! We've got lots of things to be proud of.

But hey, if you were god of the region, it'd be convenient for me.
I repudiate your interpretation of what I wrote.

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Post #13

Post by Cephus »

The problem is, debating Christians is ultimately pointless because they hold their beliefs emotionally, not rationally. Therefore it isn't possible to have an intellectual discussion with them because they care more about feeling good about the things they believe than having the things they believe actually be true.
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There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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Post #14

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Cephus wrote: The problem is, debating Christians is ultimately pointless because they hold their beliefs emotionally, not rationally. Therefore it isn't possible to have an intellectual discussion with them because they care more about feeling good about the things they believe than having the things they believe actually be true.
Although religion tends to be emotionally held rather than rational or logical, not all adherents are immune to contrary information, evidence and argument. This is verified by the many who discard religious beliefs – including members of this Forum who discuss their journey of departure.

Additionally, debating Christians here exposes defects in the belief system to hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of viewers (726 viewers in the past 24 hours). Many discover here, for the first time, that the gospels were not likely written by the famous people whose names were assigned centuries later – that there is no evidence that any of the 'miracles' attributed to Jesus actually happened – that there is no assurance that words attributed to Jesus or God were actually their words – etc.

When viewers / members discover that they have not been told the truth or the whole truth by promoters of their religion (or its literature) they may well begin to understand and perhaps eventually accept that the religion is no more 'holy' than any other – and that all are based on what one person tells another (sometimes in writing).

We are not likely to convince adversaries who are die-hard believers (at least for now); however, if what Non-Theists present is far more credible and convincing than the stories and claims of Theists, our debates are not 'ultimately pointless'.
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #15

Post by Cephus »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Cephus wrote: The problem is, debating Christians is ultimately pointless because they hold their beliefs emotionally, not rationally. Therefore it isn't possible to have an intellectual discussion with them because they care more about feeling good about the things they believe than having the things they believe actually be true.
Although religion tends to be emotionally held rather than rational or logical, not all adherents are immune to contrary information, evidence and argument. This is verified by the many who discard religious beliefs – including members of this Forum who discuss their journey of departure.
As one of the people who used to be religious and saw reality, I agree, but theists do that in spite of their faith, not because of it. And the question isn't "how to deconvert our Christian friends", it's how to debate them. Religion stops, or at least vastly slows a thinking mind. There's no way around that. Even for those of us who walked away from religion, we have to admit that before our departure, we didn't think about it very much and anyone who tried to debate religion got an emotional fight rather than a rational one.
Additionally, debating Christians here exposes defects in the belief system to hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of viewers (726 viewers in the past 24 hours). Many discover here, for the first time, that the gospels were not likely written by the famous people whose names were assigned centuries later – that there is no evidence that any of the 'miracles' attributed to Jesus actually happened – that there is no assurance that words attributed to Jesus or God were actually their words – etc.
But we already know those defects, what it rarely does is actually make believers admit to those defects. That's the trick. This isn't like having a scientific discussion where everyone cares about the evidence, we're talking about people who are deluded into living a fantasy life. They are not, in general, persuaded by evidence against their beliefs, or by the lack of evidence for their beliefs, they only care about how their beliefs make them feel. Some are better to talk to than others, but the overwhelming majority can't engage in an intelligent, rational discussion on their beliefs.
When viewers / members discover that they have not been told the truth or the whole truth by promoters of their religion (or its literature) they may well begin to understand and perhaps eventually accept that the religion is no more 'holy' than any other – and that all are based on what one person tells another (sometimes in writing).
But most of them won't discover that they haven't been told the truth, most of them, the overwhelming majority I would wager, simply don't care. The truth is irrelevant. Nothing you or I can ever say will make them change their mind because facts don't matter, only their emotions do. That's the point I was making. Talking to those people is a complete waste of time.
We are not likely to convince adversaries who are die-hard believers (at least for now); however, if what Non-Theists present is far more credible and convincing than the stories and claims of Theists, our debates are not 'ultimately pointless'.
Again, credibility means nothing to the die-hard believers, facts don't matter, evidence is irrelevant, and most of the reasonable believers, if such a thing really exists, have left. We're left arguing with fanatics most of the time. Is that a good use of our time? I'm not so sure.
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Watch my YouTube channel!
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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Re: How to debate our Christian friends

Post #16

Post by Blastcat »

Blastcat wrote:
I've been using a concept that I call "the discovery phase".. where I try to discover what it is my opponent is talking about.

There are many theists in here.. who I simply cannot comprehend, so, I've started to learn how to ask questions.. And I've JUST come to the conclusion that in all too many cases, when I ask for clarity.. I get more confusion, so that I try try again.. and then get fed up and abandon trying.

So, I guess if I didn't mention it before, it's vital to KNOW what the heck I am debating before I jump right into a debate. I should ASK for their definitions right off the bat. If that wasn't my number one.. It should have been. Could save a LOT of time.

There are three theists in here.. that when I bothered to ask what they meant.. I came away disappointed. They could not even come CLOSE to explaining what the lovely sounding words they use even MEAN in a coherent way.

Any comments?

:)

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Post #17

Post by OnceConvinced »

It's either one of these three things:

1) They don't have the holy spirit guiding them. If they did, then the holy spirit would be able to have them explain things to you clearly.

2) They don't understand it themselves. If they did they would be able to explain it in a way you can understand it.

3) It's all nonsense anyway, no matter how much they want to deny it. They just don't realise what nonsense it all is.

Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.

Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.

There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.


Check out my website: Recker's World of Fantasy

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Post #18

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 16 by OnceConvinced]
OnceConvinced wrote: It's either one of these three things:

1) They don't have the holy spirit guiding them. If they did, then the holy spirit would be able to have them explain things to you clearly.

2) They don't understand it themselves. If they did they would be able to explain it in a way you can understand it.

3) It's all nonsense anyway, no matter how much they want to deny it. They just don't realise what nonsense it all is.
oooooh i love my speculation.. with lots of sauce !!


How about these:

1. The Holy Spirit DOES guide them, but invisible alien lizard people distort it.

2. They understand it PERFECTLY.. but the lizard people.. you know how THEY are !

3. It's not nonsense at all.. It's those darn Lizard people garbling up the messages.

4. Youre a lizard person from an alien planet.

5. Not me gpoi-93-092-098upeoj-089-98-98)(*)(&(*^&(*&U_)(*%$_)_# therefore, )*)(*)(@&#)(*&)(UOIUCOIU&C)(U_*)()_(*% gobble gobble.. now QUIT IT lizard people !

:)

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