Should we leave them alone?

[Openmind]

Recently, I was engaged with a debate with a strong (ie. extremely faith-bound) Christian. However, she is also a very weak-minded person. That is, she cannot discern fact from fiction, has an immense dislike of science, and finds religion a "prettier" alternative to reality. Not very popular, and with poor self-image, I had little doubt as to why she was such a strong member of the God-Squad.

She then sent me a letter, about 200 words of consisted of the following kind of diatribe:

"God loves me...God is my rock...God picks me up when I'm down...When I'm crying, he's there for me...God is the only one who truly loves me"

I realised, this girl REALLY needs a sense of comfort in her life, because she is such a screwed up person who has little else. That may seem harsh, but it is the truth. So...would it be wrong of me to continue my discussions, and continue to dissuade her from Christianity. Indeed, is it wrong to dissuade any "weaker" people from something that gives them such comfort???

Note: By no means do I discuss religion with someone who is unwilling.

[Openmind]

Should we leave the religous alone? Are they happier living in delusion? I would argue not, because a person can only reliably achieve their goals by living in accordance with reality.

We live in an objective world. By that, I mean that reality doesn't change based upon mere whims or wishes. To live effectively and acheive our desires, we have to take action to impact the world. If we are to take action in the world, we must first know what the nature of the world is. False beliefs and flawed premises to our actions will result in failure and despair. Therefore, we have to test ideas against the standard of the real world before accepting them if we are to live happily and productively. If the religious maintain their false beliefs, they are in principle less likely to live happy or productive lives.

I don't think this is necessarily correct. They DO live happy and productive lives, some are very rich as a result. Contrary to what most atheists believe, Christians are exactly the same as them, except when it comes to God. It is surprising how well you can get along with a person based on who they are as a person, but as soon as religion comes up, they are a whole different character. So I don't think religion impacts much on success in the world.

Then maybe you should focus more on giving her something else to believe in and less on trying to take away what she has. Try introducing her to humanism instead of disproving Christianity. If you are able to show her other things she can use to maintain her sanity then she will be more willing to let go of her Christian Blankie

That is excellet advice, I will attempt to do this I think.

[Cephus]

I have no problem with leaving Christians alone, but only so long as they do me the same honor of leaving me alone. The problem is, a lot of Christians, especially the fundamentalists, want to push their irrational beliefs on everyone else, but as soon as you challenge them, they start crying and whining about how intolerant atheists are.

If you want to be free to believe whatever you want to believe, at least have the common decency to respect other's rights to do the same thing. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, your silly beliefs are fair game.

[Cmass]

It's all in the approach. Do a lot of listening and ever so subtly ask questions that lead her in a particular direction. (one thing you have to be aware of is when engaging a weak person in this manner there is always the possibility they will shift their attachment from religion to you.) I assume that ultimately you are worried she might commit suicide if the religion rug is pulled out from under her? If so, then I would focus on getting her some help ASAP because her religion is not going to save her and in fact has the potential of ushering in the event. There is also the potential for her to flip out if she has a sudden falling out with God.
I have seen this before: A desperate request is made of God via prayer and God does nothing....or even seems to make things worse. Now, instead of simply facing the reality of a universe that is indifferent to your existence you face a universe (God) that is seemingly working against or is angry at you. This is terrifying to some. I have a Cambodian seamstress who works for me who is convinced God hates her and is torturing her with all her misfortunes in life. To help God punish her she cuts herself and burns her arms with a lighter when things go badly. I have managed to convince her to seek counseling but I have also very subtly suggested that God has nothing to do with her misfortunes and thus she has not reason to punish herself. But it was done very carefully and with a series of questions that led her in a particular direction.

So, my advice is if they are weak, then treat them like any weak person: Be especially empathetic and sensitive to their mental issues regardless of their religious thoughts. And, if you think it might help, ask them questions that might lead them to a more solid understanding of the world.
I also agree with what was said earlier: If someone is teaching creationism or voting to mix religion with politics, or helping usher in judgment day or actively working against the rights of other human beings then I consider them harmful and would have less problem being a bit more assertive.

Still, all in all, a person won't "change their mind" unless they feel they have done so on their own - which is why debate by questioning is so effective. Some of this I have learned by watching McCulloch who is clearly one of the most formidable debaters in here.

[Openmind]

Thankyou for the advice, Cmass. I am not immediately worried about her committing suicide, I just think she would become very distressed without her God. But...you never know, and you have outlined a rather sad case, so I have since left her alone.

there is always the possibility they will shift their attachment from religion to you.

How did you know?