Did Jesus actually live?

[catalyst]

I have noticed in many and varied threads I have participated in, that several atheists or agnostics, claim that bible jesus, DID, as far as they are concerned, actually live as a walking talking human being.

Question: Could you please clarify just how you have come to that conclusion and please provide evidence to support?

[Goat]

I have noticed in many and varied threads I have participated in, that several atheists or agnostics, claim that bible jesus, DID, as far as they are concerned, actually live as a walking talking human being.

Question: Could you please clarify just how you have come to that conclusion and please provide evidence to support?

It is possible that there was a figure that was the inspiration for the Gospels. However, the stories about him are so exaggerated, and filled with impossiblies, with tons of theological teachings added that would be different then that Jesus would, it is pretty irrelevant.

I don't see any evidence that there was a single Jesus the gospels were based on.

I suspect that the Samaritan Messiah, who was exected in 36 C.E. by pontius pilate (according to Jospehus) might have been an inspiration to some of it.

[Cathar1950]

I have noticed in many and varied threads I have participated in, that several atheists or agnostics, claim that bible jesus, DID, as far as they are concerned, actually live as a walking talking human being.

Question: Could you please clarify just how you have come to that conclusion and please provide evidence to support?

It is possible that there was a figure that was the inspiration for the Gospels. However, the stories about him are so exaggerated, and filled with impossibles, with tons of theological teachings added that would be different then that Jesus would, it is pretty irrelevant.

I don't see any evidence that there was a single Jesus the gospels were based on.

I suspect that the Samaritan Messiah, who was executed in 36 C.E. by pontius pilate (according to Josephus) might have been an inspiration to some of it.

I have read some pretty good arguments that Judas the Galilean could also inspired some of it. There are reasons to believe Pilate may have been there as early as 12 CE. Some early Church fathers even thought Jesus died as late as 46 CE and Josephus indicates John the Baptist died after Jesus, according to the Gospels Jesus died somewhere between 26 and 33 where John dies in 36. Jesus seems to have been a composite with borrowings.
It was a common enough practice and shouldn't surprise us.
Given the many varieties of Jesus movements that existed early on it still took centuries before the myths became reality as traditions came together.

[JoeyKnothead]

Hopefully I would make it clear when I say I accept Jesus may have lived. From my amateur understanding, I see how Jesus may have lived, and how tall tales get started about folks.

So, as a matter of debate, I am willing to concede this person may have lived, but I reject wholly supernatural claims made about Jesus.

If I ever speak of Jesus in ways that suggest I believe He lived, it would only be for purposes of a particular point, and not a wholesale acceptance this dude actually did live.

[catalyst]

goat wrote:

It is possible that there was a figure that was the inspiration for the Gospels. However, the stories about him are so exaggerated, and filled with impossiblies, with tons of theological teachings added that would be different then that Jesus would, it is pretty irrelevant.

I don't see any evidence that there was a single Jesus the gospels were based on.

I suspect that the Samaritan Messiah, who was exected in 36 C.E. by pontius pilate (according to Jospehus) might have been an inspiration to some of it.

Is the "figure" you refer to though, a walking talking human being or a mythical figure? I ask as the early christians did not consider their messiah to be human, but instead ethereal spirit, much like other sky/sun-gods.

I can appreciate the Samaritan tie in there as well, however that then would make the "so called christ" (the one many christians use as their "proof" of jesus having lived) comment attributed to Josephus, as benign. ( I realise it is supposedly a later interpolation of his works anyway..but... )

[catalyst]

Cathar1950 wrote:

I have read some pretty good arguments that Judas the Galilean could also inspired some of it. There are reasons to believe Pilate may have been there as early as 12 CE. Some early Church fathers even thought Jesus died as late as 46 CE and Josephus indicates John the Baptist died after Jesus, according to the Gospels Jesus died somewhere between 26 and 33 where John dies in 36. Jesus seems to have been a composite with borrowings.
It was a common enough practice and shouldn't surprise us.
Given the many varieties of Jesus movements that existed early on it still took centuries before the myths became reality as traditions came together

Some early church fathers also had jesus allegedly living to the age of 120, so what is it people are assumed to believe if of course any of it is to be believed at all.

The messianic figure however does appear to have common theme, as in being a composit of multi trains of thought, and perhaps not much more.

[Goat]

goat wrote:

It is possible that there was a figure that was the inspiration for the Gospels. However, the stories about him are so exaggerated, and filled with impossiblies, with tons of theological teachings added that would be different then that Jesus would, it is pretty irrelevant.

I don't see any evidence that there was a single Jesus the gospels were based on.

I suspect that the Samaritan Messiah, who was exected in 36 C.E. by pontius pilate (according to Jospehus) might have been an inspiration to some of it.

Is the "figure" you refer to though, a walking talking human being or a mythical figure? I ask as the early christians did not consider their messiah to be human, but instead ethereal spirit, much like other sky/sun-gods.

I can appreciate the Samaritan tie in there as well, however that then would make the "so called christ" (the one many christians use as their "proof" of jesus having lived) comment attributed to Josephus, as benign. ( I realise it is supposedly a later interpolation of his works anyway..but... )

The 'Samaritan Messiah' was a real walking talking person. Remember, a 'messiah' in Judaism is different than in Christianity.

Basically, in 36 , there was a revolt in Samaria. From http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/me ... nts06.html

The Samaritan prophet (36 CE)
Source: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.85-87.

Story: In 36 CE, the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, was confronted with a serious rebellion in Samaria.

For a man who made light of mendacity and in all his designs catered to the mob, rallied them, bidding them go in a body with him to Mount Gerizim, which in their belief is the most sacred of mountains. He assured them that on their arrival he would show them the sacred vessels which were buried there, where Moses had deposited them. His hearers, viewing this tale as plausible, appeared in arms. They posted themselves in a certain village named Tirathana, and, as they planned to climb the mountain in a great multitude, they welcomed to their ranks the new arrivals who kept coming. But before they could ascend, Pilate blocked their projected route up the mountain with a detachment of cavalry and heavily armed infantry, who in an encounter with the first comers in the village slew some in a pitched battle and put the others to flight. Many prisoners were taken, of whom Pilate put to death the principal leaders and those who were most influential among the fugitives.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.85-87]

Comment: The Samaritan prophet may be called a Messiah, because he announced the restoration of the cult in the Samarian temple, which was on Mount Gerizim. But he was not a Messiah in its original sense, because that is a Jewish concept. The Samaritan equivalent is the Taheb, the Restorer-prophet 'like Moses' announced in Deuteronomy 18.15-18. The two concepts were related, however, and were used as synonyms in the Gospel of John, where a Samaritan woman says:

'I know that the Messiah is coming. When he will come, he will show us all things.' (John 4.25)

This comes close to the Jewish idea that the Messiah will show the true meaning of the Law of Moses.

[McCulloch]

Hopefully I would make it clear when I say I accept Jesus may have lived. From my amateur understanding, I see how Jesus may have lived, and how tall tales get started about folks.

So, as a matter of debate, I am willing to concede this person may have lived, but I reject wholly supernatural claims made about Jesus.

If I ever speak of Jesus in ways that suggest I believe He lived, it would only be for purposes of a particular point, and not a wholesale acceptance this dude actually did live.

And of course Robin Hood may have lived too.

Jesus certainly did live.

1. Jesus ben Sirach. This Jesus was reputedly the author of the Book of Sirach (aka 'Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach'), part of Old Testament Apocrypha. Ben Sirach, writing in Greek about 180 BC, brought together Jewish 'wisdom' and Homeric-style heroes.
2. Jesus ben Pandira. A wonder-worker during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (106-79 BC), one of the most ruthless of the Maccabean kings. Imprudently, this Jesus launched into a career of end-time prophesy and agitation which upset the king. He met his own premature end-time by being hung on a tree – and on the eve of a Passover. Scholars have speculated this Jesus founded the Essene sect.
3. Jesus ben Ananias. Beginning in 62AD, this Jesus had caused disquiet in Jerusalem with a non-stop doom-laden mantra of ‘Woe to the city’. He prophesied rather vaguely:
   
   "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against the whole people."
   – Josephus, Wars 6.3.
   
   Arrested and flogged by the Romans, he was released as nothing more dangerous than a mad man. He died during the siege of Jerusalem from a rock hurled by a Roman catapult.
4. Jesus ben Saphat. In the insurrection of 68AD that wrought havoc in Galilee, this Jesus had led the rebels in Tiberias. When the city was about to fall to Vespasian’s legionaries he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee.
5. Jesus ben Gamala. During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). It did him no good. When the Idumeans breached the walls he was put to death and his body thrown to the dogs and carrion birds.
6. Jesus ben Thebuth. A priest who, in the final capitulation of the upper city in 69AD, saved his own skin by surrendering the treasures of the Temple, which included two holy candlesticks, goblets of pure gold, sacred curtains and robes of the high priests. The booty figured prominently in the Triumph held for Vespasian and his son Titus.
7. Jesus ben Stada was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew. And given the scale that Roman retribution could reach – at the height of the siege of Jerusalem the Romans were crucifying upwards of five hundred captives a day before the city walls – dead heroes called Jesus would (quite literally) have been thick on the ground. Not one merits a full-stop in the great universal history.
8. Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty-eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4).

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm

[catalyst]

McCulloch wrote:

Jesus certainly did live.

Just not the bible one, "of nazareth"!

[JoeyKnothead]

And of course Robin Hood may have lived too.

I see the Jesus myth as a tall tale really. I don't think it unreasonable to believe there was this preacher feller going about carrying on. I just think the stories have been blown way the heck outta proportion.