How can you consider yourself a Christian

[scottlittlefield17]

Basically there are two things in the statement of faith:
1. We believe the Bible to be from God and is the basis for the Christian life.
2. We believe Jesus Christ saves us and he alone atones for our sins.

If you accept these, you can be a member of the church.

What one believes on eschatology, evolution, baptism of Holy Spirit, homosexuality, abortion, politics, drinking alcohol, baptism by dunking or sprinkling are all not important. None of these issues determine if you're a Christian or not.

Emphasis would not be on doctrine. That is, it's not imperative to know what is right. But more emphasis would be on living what is right. Teachings should not be on gaining head knowledge, but on being applicable to daily life.

How can you believe that and still be a Christian Otseng? Don't you read the Bible? What about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God."

1 Corinthians 6:18-20

Flee form sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with you bodies.

Yes you say you believe in Jesus but, Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me you evil doers.

Just believing in Jesus is not enough. We must do the will of his Father in heaven as it is laid out for us in the New Testament. You say you love Jesus but what about John 14:15 and 15:10,

If you love me you will obey what I command
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love just as I have obeyed my Fathers commands and remain in his love"

Also Matthew 7:18

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit...every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them.

That verse is referencing works. Simple belief is not enough. James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds. 17b Faith by itself, if is not accompanied by action, is dead. 19a You believe in God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 26 As the body without the spirit is dead so faith without deeds is dead.

In Revelation 22:15 Jesus says,

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

In light of those verses I cannot see how you can say that you are a Christian yet ignore the direct commands of scripture. And say that the very things that Paul and Jesus say will send you to the lake of fire you say is not a requirement!

[GentleDove]

scottlittlefield17, I appreciate your comments here. Would you mind posting a link to the thread where these comments of otseng came from? I want to be able to read otseng's comments in their fuller context. Thanks much!

Edited to add:
Nevermind; I found the thread here

[scottlittlefield17]

Sorry GentleDove, you had the wrong thread. See below for the correct one.

P.S. Anyone else is welcome to post as well. But if possible I would really like Otseng's input.

[scottlittlefield17]

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=5008

That is the right thread.

[GentleDove]

Sorry GentleDove, you had the wrong thread. See below for the correct one.

P.S. Anyone else is welcome to post as well. But if possible I would really like Otseng's input.

Thank you for the correction, scottlittlefield17; I was too late to edit it from my previous post, but I am sorry for the false link.

[Goose]

Basically there are two things in the statement of faith:
1. We believe the Bible to be from God and is the basis for the Christian life.
2. We believe Jesus Christ saves us and he alone atones for our sins.

If you accept these, you can be a member of the church.

What one believes on eschatology, evolution, baptism of Holy Spirit, homosexuality, abortion, politics, drinking alcohol, baptism by dunking or sprinkling are all not important. None of these issues determine if you're a Christian or not.

Emphasis would not be on doctrine. That is, it's not imperative to know what is right. But more emphasis would be on living what is right. Teachings should not be on gaining head knowledge, but on being applicable to daily life.

How can you believe that and still be a Christian Otseng? Don't you read the Bible?

Hi Scott,

I think you have some valid points. I'm sure O will answer for himself but I'll chime in. Though I disagree with O that some of the issues (such as homosexuality or abortion) he listed aren't important, and by implication should never be topics addressed by the church, I would agree that those issues aren't essential for salvation and thus fall into a broad secondary category. One's belief about evolution, homosexuality, abortion, drinking and so on are not what saves. In this context O would be right to say those beliefs are not important if the goal of the church is to win the lost. After all the church is simply the body of Christ which is the body of believers.

I will add that I would feel very uncomfortable in a church that allowed homosexual relationships, abortion, and drunkenness to go on undressed. If a church never called anyone to become baptized in the Holy Spirit or by water I'd be puzzled by that as well. I'd have some very serious reservations about whether that church truly believed the Bible to be from God and the basis for the Christian life.

What about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God."

Notice that Paul places sexual immorality and idolatry on the same level as theft, greed, intoxication, swindling and even slander. Have you ever slandered anyone, Scott? Ever swindled anyone? Ever fudged your taxes? Ever had an impure thought about a woman? Or are you perfect in all respects of your conduct? Paul seems to be suggesting that ALL sin has the same effect - that it prevents us from inheriting the Kingdom of God. Thus we need Jesus as we have ALL fallen short and sinned.

Further in verse 11 Paul is subtly rebuking a judgmental attitude in the Corinthians. He is reminding them that they are also sinners, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

1 Corinthians 6:18-20

Flee form sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with you bodies.

We are to honour God for what he has given us and done for us by how we treat our bodies. We are to flee from sexuality immorality. I think these would be external evidences of an internal desire to please God. But let's not make this say more than it does. It says nothing here about salvation or damnation.

Yes you say you believe in Jesus but, Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me you evil doers.

The will of the Father is that we accept his son, Jesus Christ, so that we will be saved:

John 6:40 Jesus said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So it would make sense that those who are doing the will of the Father are those that share the Gospel and make disciples. This is confirmed by the Jesus' commission to us recorded at the end of Matthew.

Just believing in Jesus is not enough.

Apparently it was enough for the criminal hanging on the cross with Jesus. He was granted paradise by Jesus. Paul also seems to think this is enough in Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

You say you love Jesus but what about John 14:15 and 15:10,

If you love me you will obey what I command
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love just as I have obeyed my Fathers commands and remain in his love"

Jesus said the greatest commandment is that we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind. The second is like it. That we love our neighbour as our self (Matthew 22). Therefore, we should love the Lord and our neighbour be they Christian or not. By implication following all other commands come after these in level of importance.

Also Matthew 7:18

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit...every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus by their fruit you will recognize them.

Agreed! One fruit is helping those less fortunate than us. When was the last time you bought a meal for a person living on the street and hungry?

That verse is referencing works. Simple belief is not enough. James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds. 17b Faith by itself, if is not accompanied by action, is dead. 19a You believe in God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 26 As the body without the spirit is dead so faith without deeds is dead.

This passage from James is speaking about the type of faith necessary for salvation, not the type of works or that works are needed for salvation. The type of faith that prompts us to do good works is the type of faith that saves. The example given in James ch. 2 is that we feed and cloth the poor. If our faith compels us to do these types of works (essentially showing love to our neighbour) we can rest assured we have the type of faith that saves.

In Revelation 22:15 Jesus says,

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

And two verses later, "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. This is directed at non-believers not Christians per se. If it is directed at Christians this would mean that a Christian that sins has the same fate as a non-Christian. The author of Revelations, John, also said in 1 John 2:1 that Christians might sin. It's not that a Christian will never sin, but that we have a mediator in Jesus. It's false that a Christian that has sinned is not a true Christian.

And say that the very things that Paul and Jesus say will send you to the lake of fire you say is not a requirement!

Paul and Jesus never say these very things is what will send you to hell. Paul says the wages of sin is death. Jesus said it would be better to cut off your hand than sin and be thrown into eternal fire. ALL sin has the same consequence. Let's not forget that.

It's not wrong to question another Christian or even judge them. However - and this is a BIG however - we had better make darn sure our own ducks are in a row first before we do!

Matthew 7:1-5 "Stop judging, so that you won't be judged. For with the judgment you use, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, you will be measured. "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when the beam is in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


Your brother in Christ,

Goose.

[scottlittlefield17]

This is a little long but read the whole thing please.

Some good points Goose but I think you missed a little of my point. For example,

Notice that Paul places sexual immorality and idolatry on the same level as theft, greed, intoxication, swindling and even slander. Have you ever slandered anyone, Scott? Ever swindled anyone? Ever fudged your taxes? Ever had an impure thought about a woman? Or are you perfect in all respects of your conduct? Paul seems to be suggesting that ALL sin has the same effect - that it prevents us from inheriting the Kingdom of God. Thus we need Jesus as we have ALL fallen short and sinned.

My point to Otseng is that yes, I have slandered, yes I have had impure thoughts. I can't say I ever fudged on my taxes but my point was that Otseng seems to say that it is alright to do those things and to continue in them. By not having the church address it (which is the churches responsibility to address problems) he seems to be saying that it is OK. When you sin you ask God to forgive you and repent. Repenting means turning away. Everybody sins but to not call sin sin seems out of whack.
Also,

Quote:

Just believing in Jesus is not enough.

Apparently it was enough for the criminal hanging on the cross with Jesus. He was granted paradise by Jesus. Paul also seems to think this is enough in Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Yes I agree, I could have worded that better. My point was that just believing in Jesus without backing it up with obedience to what he commands is not enough. Obviously Jesus saw a repentance in the thief. From what I understand of the Bible if the thief was just doing it because he was dying, if would have gone back to robbery and murder if he got off the cross, I don't think he could have been saved. Being saved requires a genuine repentance of sin. The Bible says what is sin and if those sins are sins that are directed toward evil people does that mean that Christians can do them and get away just because they have a mediator. A mediator does no good if there is nothing to mediate. The Christian must first ask for forgiveness (Which includes by definition being willing to turn away) before Christ can mediate. Am I being clear enough here? Christ requires obedience. If there is no obedience than you will not go to heaven whether you believe in Jesus or not. From the passage in Matthew seven, just simple belief is not enough. Those people believed and even did might things but they were not obedient. I have seen the argument so many times on here that says Those lists of sins are talking about what unbelievers are doing. Exactly, that is saying what they do and what we should avoid. How can you say that the very sins that it says are keeping the unbelievers out of heaven are OK for Christians because we have a mediator? I can't seem to say exactly what I am thinking so I hope I am getting my point across clearly. I guess my main point is that the Bible requires willing obedience in order to go to heaven. If you do not willingly obey you will not go. Now that is not to say you will not sin because you will. However we are supposed to do our best not to and when we do we ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again.

It's not wrong to question another Christian or even judge them. However - and this is a BIG however - we had better make darn sure our own ducks are in a row first before we do!

I agree, I won't go as far to say that Otseng is not a Christian. But I do have some very grave concerns. When I said in the title "How can you consider yourself a Christian" I was not saying it in the context that he was not one, I was just asking what he based it on. I would say that Biblicaly speaking saying a prayer when you are three and living the rest of your life how you want will not get you to heaven.

I would agree that those issues aren't essential for salvation and thus fall into a broad secondary category. One's belief about evolution, homosexuality, abortion, drinking and so on are not what saves.

Maybe, maybe you could belief homosexuality or abortion is OK and still go to heaven. But if you commit those sins and are unrepentant or you encourage others to I do believe that will keep you out of heaven. For the bible says if you cause a "little" one to sin it would be better to have a millstone hung around your neck and be thrown in the sea. So I am not sure about belief alone, but you could not commit it or encourage/approve of it. So I guess I would pretty much say you could not believe it. Revelation says that the sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Plain and simple. Just because you claim the name of Jesus does not mean you can do that unrepentantly and still go to heaven. Do you understand what I mean?

We are to honor God for what he has given us and done for us by how we treat our bodies. We are to flee from sexuality immorality. I think these would be external evidences of an internal desire to please God. But let's not make this say more than it does. It says nothing here about salvation or damnation.

It does in Revelation.

The will of the Father is that we accept his son, Jesus Christ, so that we will be saved:

John 6:40 Jesus said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So it would make sense that those who are doing the will of the Father are those that share the Gospel and make disciples. This is confirmed by the Jesus' commission to us recorded at the end of Matthew.

I agree to an extent. Yes that is the Fathers will, but it goes much deeper than that. If all that is required is that we believe in Jesus and make disciples and share the gospel than the Bible could be much, much shorter. The Fathers will also is that we obey what the Bible commands, otherwise what would the purpose of commanding it if it is not his will.

[otseng]

Thanks for the question scottlittlefield17.

As you pointed out, the context of what I wrote was in regards to being a member of my ideal church. It doesn't matter if one is a millennialist, amillennialst, postmillennialist, premillennialist, preterist. If one is a creationist or an evolutionist. If one believes in speaking in tongues or not. If one supports homosexual marriages or not. If one supports woman's right to choose or banning all abortions. If one is a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, or whatever. If one is a teetotaler or one that supports selling alcohol on Sunday. Or one who believes in total immersion or sprinkling. Or believes in the 5 points of Calvinism or in Arminianism.

Now, if someone else would like to participate in a church that only has members that has the exact same ideology as themselves, that is their freedom to do so. But, personally, I believe that a church should embrace as many people as possible and put up as few restrictions as possible.

There does have to be a minimum set of restrictions though. And that if one can accept the following two, it's good enough for me:

1. We believe the Bible to be from God and is the basis for the Christian life.
2. We believe Jesus Christ saves us and he alone atones for our sins.

Actually, there are some more, but these two can suffice.

Let me be clear however that I do not support sinful behavior. I believe the Bible is clear on what is sinful behavior. But, we are all sinners. If perfect behavior is a criteria for being a Christian, then none of us are Christians.

If the members agree on point 1, then there is a basis to define sinful behavior and how to deal with it.

Don't you read the Bible?

I've read the entire Bible many times straight through. And I've taught and attended many Bible studies. So, yes, I've read the Bible.

Just believing in Jesus is not enough.

I would agree that just because someone says "Lord, lord", that would not mean God would let him into heaven. God alone can judge who would enter into heaven, even if that person does think he is a Christian.

But, how am I able to judge who is truly a Christian or not? The only way I can tell if that person says that he has accepted Jesus as his savior. I cannot add additional requirements to determine if that person is a Christian or not.

Though I disagree with O that some of the issues (such as homosexuality or abortion) he listed aren't important, and by implication should never be topics addressed by the church,

For the record, I'm against same gender sex and against abortions. And I believe these issues are important. And I believe the church should definitely address these issues. However, I do not believe in the ratings of sin. Is someone who has 100 same sex partners a year a worse sinner than me? No, we are both sinners. Is someone who had an abortion a worse sinner than me? No.

Sin does need to be addressed in the church. But it should not be addressed by not letting those people come in the doors of the church. Their hearts should change only be the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. If we exclude these people from entering the church in the first place, then what hope is there of them ever changing?

I will add that I would feel very uncomfortable in a church that allowed homosexual relationships, abortion, and drunkenness to go on undressed

I as well. I would add though that any sin that is unaddressed would make me feel uncomfortable. When was the last sermon anyone heard on the sin of overeating?

"Phl 3:19 Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)"

What about hypocrisy, unfaithfulness, divorce, materialism, legalism, pride, pornography, etc? All these run rampant in Christian circles, but how seriously does the church try to address these?

If a church never called anyone to become baptized in the Holy Spirit or by water I'd be puzzled by that as well.

We are commanded to baptize others. Yet, even churches fail to take this seriously. In the Bible, believers were immediately baptized in water. Nowadays there is a signficiant time between one's "personal decision" and when one is baptized.

Otseng seems to say that it is alright to do those things and to continue in them.

Nowhere do I say that. It is not acceptable for any Christian to do anything sinful. But, having perfect behavior is not a criteria for being a Christian.

By not having the church address it (which is the churches responsibility to address problems) he seems to be saying that it is OK

I have not said that either. Churches should definitely address all issues.

Everybody sins but to not call sin sin seems out of whack.

I'm not sure where you are reading all this by what I've said.

Christ requires obedience. If there is no obedience than you will not go to heaven whether you believe in Jesus or not.

Being a Christian does require obedience. But, I am not going to judge another person on what level of obedience is sufficient for that person to enter heaven.

I will also add that Christianity nowadays has too much easy-believism. That is, the church as a whole does not emphasize carrying the cross. Instead it has watered down the gospel. It's like, "come into our gym for free". But it rarely talks about weight training and actually lifting some weights.

I would say that Biblicaly speaking saying a prayer when you are three and living the rest of your life how you want will not get you to heaven.

I don't think so either. But, I'll let God sort out who are the "real" Christians and who are not.

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Hope that clarifies where I stand on things. If not, feel free to ask more questions.

[myth-one.com]

How can you believe that and still be a Christian Otseng? Don't you read the Bible? What about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanders nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God."

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (I Corinthians 6:11)

There will be no murderers, thieves, homosexuals, fornicators, drunkards, etc, in the Kingdom of God. However, there will be angels who were formerly murderers, thieves, homosexuals, fornicators, drunkards, etc, as humans on the earth. Christians will be born again as spiritual sinless children into the Kingdom of God:

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

This does not mean small as a baby, helpless, etc. It means sinless. Christians will be converted from physical to spiritual bodies and become as little children once again. You start with a clean slate. God wipes away your sins committed as a human. The wages for these sins have already been paid. Thanks to Jesus, you inherit eternal life as a spirit with a clean record. In the Kingdom of Heaven no one knows nor cares that you were once a murderer, thief, adulterer, or whatever. Why? Because you are no longer! You are a new sinless creature.

1. We believe the Bible to be from God and is the basis for the Christian life.
2. We believe Jesus Christ saves us and he alone atones for our sins.

I would change the word Bible to "scriptures." The scriptures were inspired by God. Our Bibles are translations of the scriptures. Nothing is stated in the scriptures (to my knowledge) about the translations also being inspired by God.

Just believing in Jesus is not enough.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Whosoever includes all of the various sinners Paul mentioned in Corinthians! God knows I'm a whosoever.

[scottlittlefield17]

My whole point is what Paul says. "Should we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid!". The continuing in blatant sin that contradicts the Bible is the issue that I have.