To preface this topic let me give you a little background on me. I have been Christian all my life, went to a Christian school and have always been strong in my faith except for a few minor issues. As I got older I began questioning my faith (which I still believe is a very healthy thing for you to do spiritually as it helps you grow).
The most important one to me right now is the Trinity. I'm struggling with the concept. I know that Jesus used the phrase "I am" to describe himself but some claim that this has been mistranslated (any news on this would be helpful). Also, Jesus said that, ""No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36 NIV). This does not sound like an omniscient member of the God-head to me (please help). Also, there is this passage - John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Again this shows Christ being unequal to God (or am I wrong???).
I would appreciate any help. Again my issue is not whether or not Jesus is the Messiah but if he is divine. BE WARNED: I will QUESTION your answers and will not stop until I find something satisfactory.
P.S. I might use some of these answers in a Sunday School class I'm teaching so extra references would be great!
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
Hebrews 11:1-2
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.
1 Peter 3:15
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
1 Thessalonians 5:21
EduChris wrote:The Jews to whom Jesus spoke these words certainly had no trouble understanding Jesus' claim to divinity here. That's why they picked up stones to throw at him.
Jesus may well have been making claims at least to a divine origin but his understanding of the Jewish motive was not that he was claiming to be Almighty God since he himself said:
ByFaithAlone wrote:...the Trinity. I'm struggling with the concept...I would appreciate any help...I will QUESTION your answers and will not stop until I find something satisfactory...
The Christian understanding of the "Triune God," in comparison to any other religion, best encapsulates the "necessary preconditions for anything at all to exist."
All we have to do is make one simple assumption, the assumption that something exists.
From there, I believe I have shown on this thread that the necessary conditions of: 1) existence, 2) differentiation, and 3) relationality must apply for all conceivable universes.
Non-contingent Existence, non-contingent Differentiation, and non-contingent Relationality. Sounds very much like the Christian concept of "Trinity."
JehovahsWitness wrote:...There is really no indication from the context that Jesus was using the verb as a title and not reason why it should be directly linked to the tetregrammaton as used in Exodus...
The Jews to whom Jesus spoke these words certainly had no trouble understanding Jesus' claim to divinity here. That's why they picked up stones to throw at him. Even Bart Ehrman (no friend to Christianity) knows that in the Gospel of John Jesus is divine.
Those same Jews later found Jesus guilty of blasphemy, a crime neither Jesus' actions or words merited - in short they were liars and I hesistate to use the words of a liar to establish bible truth. Jesus himself repeated what he had said at the time of the accusation saying ...
" I said, I am God’s Son [...]" (John 10: 36)
- - Jesus Christ
If the Jews claimed he thus made himself "equal to God" they had but to recall his earlier words
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. -- John 14:28 KJV
Matthew 27:46: "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." -- John 5:30 & John 14:31 & Matthew 20:23
"The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing." -- John 5:19 (The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox)
Matthew 20:23, JB "As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,"
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." -- Mark 10:18, JB
A MAN OF DIVINE ORIGINS
Jesus clearly claimed he was of divine origin - had a prehuman life but at no time did he claim to be Almighty God. (The linguistic gymnastic trinitarians twist themselves into at John 8:58 require a complete disregard for the language, context and basic grammar to pull off). Jesus had a prehuman existence as God's first Created being and that he was the "master worker" through whom God created everthing in existence. At this time he was indeed "divine" or "godlike" in nature. While on earth however, he was a human and not a "god-man" (part human part God). A perfect human son of God of divine origins, sure, but fully human equal to the perfect man Adam.
Since his resurrection Jesus is a mighty, glorious divine spirit, incorruptible and immortal but still subordinate to his Father. (see - I Cor 11: 3)
The Greek word translated into the english "divine" is "theotetos." According to scholarly Greek lexicons, it means "godship, divine quality, deity, divinity." "Theotetos" may or may not apply to God, it depends on the context. Trinitarians always assume that the word 'god' or 'divinity' or any similar word when applied to Christ means that he is God. But the Hebrew and Greek words for 'god' is not limited to the one true God, but can apply to others, even faithful beings.
I would like you to consider the following Hebrew Scriptures/Greek Scrptures comparissons.
1 Peter 2:6-8
For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone," [fn]
and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Who is the cornerstone? Jesus, of course. Peter is also calling Jesus a stone of stumbling. This is a reference from Isaiah:
Isaiah 8:13,14
But the LORD of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
YHWH is the stone of stumbling. Peter is equating Jesus to God.
Isaiah 40:3
A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Luke 3:4 about John the Baptizer
As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John was heralding Christ's coming. John says Jesus is YHWH.
Look at Hebrews with me for a moment. I encourage you to read it in context.
Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
God does not share His glory (isaiah 42:8, 48:11)
Hebrews 1:10-12 says of the Son
And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
Which is a quote of Psalm 102. Look at the Psalm's first line. The subject is YHWH.
Psalm 102 says Jehovah created. Hebrews says Jesus created. This is where it gets interesting...
Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
The objections you have posted (ie Jesus does nothing on His own) are all explained by a previous post about Philippians 2:5 and on. This is describing how Christ chose to temporarily lay aside His power and submit to God the Father and rely on Him. This was so that He could live the righteous, obedient life that we sinful humans could not.
You'll notice that before His crucifixion, there were certain things He did not know ("who touched me?", "the Son doesn't know the day or hour") But afer His resurrection He behaves differently...
Acts 1:6,7
So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
Notice that Jesus says it is not for YOU to know? He Does not say that He does not know at this point.
