The Heresy Of This Protestant

[Darias]

My Question will be given at the end of this post.

I was inspired by this post: SOURCE

[center]=== (How I deviate from the teachings of the Catholic Church) ===[/center]

1.) I do not believe Christ established a church, as in, a new religious institution with religious leadership, etc. I believe that He sent a message to the people of his time and the generations after Him. I don't think it was intended to turn into a set of traditions, laws, rules, etc. The Church is a body of believers, not a building, institution, sect, denomination, or house of dogma.

2.) A number of the Roman Catholic Church's traditions were inspired by Christ and His life - but I reject the idea that all such traditions and beliefs are solely based upon Christ or Biblical teachings.

3.) I reject a number of Catholic and Protestant teachings, such as traditions, doctrines, and interpretations of scripture.

4.) I reject the Biblically literalistic, Roman Catholic belief in Transubstantiation. I believe the tradition of communion is a devolution of Jewish Passover. However, I believe that the essence of it is done in the remembrance of Christ and what he did. I practice communion as understood by Protestants. I believe that it is symbolic of Christ' life and death and that the grape juice and wafers are nothing more than sugar, artificial colors, and carbohydrates. They have no magical power to cleanse or save.

5.) I wholeheartedly reject longstanding unequal social dogma perpetuated by various Christian churches, such as:
* Homosexuality is a greater sin than others.
* Gays are going to hell.
* Homosexuality is a sin.
* Gays should not be allowed to marry and receive the same legal benefits as anyone else because their orientation and love for each other is an abomination to God -- who only accepts traditional marriage as defined by the Medieval Catholic Church of a union of two heterosexual individuals choosing to love each other and enter into a legal contract. (as opposed to polygamous relationships and or the abandonment of relationship as often displayed in the Bible).

6.) I do not believe the Pope is infallible. I do not believe that word of priest or pastor is authoritative. I believe all messages of religious teachers should be subject to analysis, questioning, and debate -- not merely absorbed as truth.

7.) Everyone should have the right to marry.

8.) Too much emphasis has been placed on religion and tradition instead of reason and love (and God). Mary was a human being. She is not the mother of God. She is not divine.

9.) No one is infallible. Even the authors of the Bible are not infallible. The Bible is not inerrant. The Bible may have been inspired by God, or by ideas of God, but it is not necessarily accurate in displaying the nature of God -- in a number of places, it fails to get even the most basic moral justice right. Women are taught to be silent in churches and to cover themselves. People are taught to stone their children. People are taught to shun believers who are not faithful enough and to not take up non-believers as friends.

10.) I think Christianity needs to focus more on teaching the development of a personal relationship with the Father via Christ.

11.) I do not accept tales of stigmata. I do not believe in holy relics. I do not believe in the veneration of images of Christ, God, Mary, or "Saints" as recognized by the Catholic Church.

12.) I believe that Saints are and were imperfect, sometimes good sometimes evil -- but believers nonetheless. I like to attribute the word saint to people who particularly strove/are striving to be better. I do not believe in the idea of the veneration of (dead)saints or prayer to (dead)saints. They are with God now, they have no magical powers. They don't grant wishes. And you can't sell your house if you bury a statue of one in your yard.


[center]=== (How I deviate from the teachings of the Protestant Church) ===[/center]

1.) Genesis is not a literal historical account. Evolution is a fact of life. Get used to it.

2.) Personal Relationship with Christ isn't even in the Bible (as far as I know). Accepting Christ into your heart isn't in the Bible. Where do these things come from? I love Jesus and I love God, I have a relationship with God, and I depend on God for my Salvation via Christ, but still...

3.) Hell isn't a lake of lava. Hell is just nothingness (if an afterlife exists, which I believe there is).

4.) There is no gay agenda. Gays aren't going to hell. Not everyone is going to hell. If they are, who are you to say who does and who doesn't?

5.) I hope that everyone one day will be saved. One can't confess Christ as Lord sincerely unless the Holy Spirit is with them -- and they can't confess Christ as Lord if they are in hell. And All will confess one day, ergo all could be saved? idk.

I don't wish hell on anyone, and I don't like to think about it really. I depend on Christ for the salvation of my soul and my very humanity, because I know what kind of person I am and where I deserve to be -- but I don't like to think about, or judge others who have different convictions.

Basically, I hope universal reconciliation is true. Based on God's nature, there is evidence for it.


5.) Prayer is good but action is better.

6.) We are saved by God's grace via faith -- but faith without works is worthless -- so don't use grace as a reason to sit on your rear in church and do nothing else.

7.) I'm not sure I really believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus said God was greater than Him. Sure He's God's Son, no question. Sure He died for our sins. Sure He is our mediator and savior. But the Father is Greater than Him, and only the Father knows when He shall return (which I hope He does). Jesus never claimed to be God. He claimed oneness with the Father - and that if we love Him we Love God -- He was the closest thing of God with us that ever set foot on this Earth. But He was also a human being. His name is above all other names - but that name was given to Him by God.

Whether or not the Trinity is true, I worship God either way. I love God and I love Jesus -- I don't see how this issue matters -- it's just that I have my doubts about the logic of the Trinity. Christ would be my brother, I would be spiritually adopted by the Father. Even though Christ was made a little lower than the angels, and even though He was later given all authority over all things after His Death - He is God's High Priest -- but He is not necessarily God -- and He is certainly not the Father.

Idk, it's just VERY confusing. Not only because I am not a theologian, but it is also confusing in my spiritual relationship with God. Obviously I was raised to believe Christ and God are one and the same. Now I don't know. I hope God doesn't hold it against me.


[center]=== (Question for debate) ===[/center]

I'm not worried about being excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and I'm not worried about being shunned by a Baptist Church...

I do not believe religious institutions have the power to save or do anything. I do not need to follow the Pope in order for God to love me. I do not have to believe everything my Pastor says for God to love me...

But...

Given my beliefs above, do you think I will be among those who Jesus is talking about here?

21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

SOURCE

I've often considered -- what if to prove my salvation, I just adopted more conservative, literal and religious ideas and values. If I believed Genesis was literal history, that the Bible was infallible, that gays were going to hell, that God = Jesus and Jesus = Grape Juice ... and if I believed everything my pastor told me -- if that would please God and if I would really be a saved Christian then.

But somehow, I don't think I could believe all that -- that's just not me. Would God expect me to conform to those ideas (some of which are very ignorant) in order for Him to really save me?

Am I a bad christian for believing in equality of marriage and in science?

Am I one of those who say "Lord Lord" who the Lord does not know?

Would any of you consider me a "Christian"?

[WinePusher]

The stuff I don't respond to means that I agree with it

4.) I reject the Biblically literalistic, Roman Catholic belief in Transubstantiation. I believe the tradition of communion is a devolution of Jewish Passover. However, I believe that the essence of it is done in the remembrance of Christ and what he did. I practice communion as understood by Protestants. I believe that it is symbolic of Christ' life and death and that the grape juice and wafers are nothing more than sugar, artificial colors, and carbohydrates. They have no magical power to cleanse or save.

Jesus said "This Is My Body, Do This In Remembrance Of Me." I accept this literally, the bread and wine is his body and blood, and it is also a memorial. I do not reject the protestant view of communion, however Roman Catholics expound on it more often and make the "ritual" more meaningful in many ways.

8.) Too much emphasis has been placed on religion and tradition instead of reason and love (and God). Mary was a human being. She is not the mother of God. She is not divine.

Yes, of course she is not divine. However, she is the mother of God by simple logic.

Jesus Christ Is God.
Mary Is Jesus Christ's Mother.
Therefore Mary Is The Mother Of God.

I do venerate her because she found favor with the lord and said yes to God. Those traits mark the characteristics of a Christian which I and other Catholics try to model outselves after.

2.) Personal Relationship with Christ isn't even in the Bible (as far as I know). Accepting Christ into your heart isn't in the Bible. Where do these things come from? I love Jesus and I love God, I have a relationship with God, and I depend on God for my Salvation via Christ, but still...

This is why the view of Sola Scriptura lacks in alot of departments. If you don't think that a personal relationship with Christ is a prerequisite to being a Christians, then what is? The uniqueness of Christianity is that it is based upon a man who was fully God and Human, who died for while we were sinners even though we had done nothing to deserve this. If one does not know and love Christ then I would consider them to be a "lapsed" Christian.

5.) Prayer is good but action is better.

Of course, one can demonstrate their faith through their actions but one cannot demonstrate their faith without actions.

6.) We are saved by God's grace via faith -- but faith without works is worthless -- so don't use grace as a reason to sit on your rear in church and do nothing else.

Absolutly.

Given my beliefs above, do you think I will be among those who Jesus is talking about here?

21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

SOURCE

I've often considered -- what if to prove my salvation, I just adopted more conservative, literal and religious ideas and values. If I believed Genesis was literal history, that the Bible was infallible, that gays were going to hell, that God = Jesus and Jesus = Grape Juice ... and if I believed everything my pastor told me -- if that would please God and if I would really be a saved Christian then.

I do not interpret Genesis literally, I "believe" in science as a powerful tool for inquiry, I believe that gays are accepted and loved by God and are not damned to hell. However, this all goes back to having a personal relationship with Christ. The way I see it is that all God asks is for us to recognize the grace and love he's bestowed on us, so the scripture is absolutly correct. A personal relationship is really all that matter and its the basis of the Christian Faith. Church, community, and fellowship are great, but they can only stand if the individual has a strong rock to lean on.

[Darias]

[center]===1===[/center]

8.) Too much emphasis has been placed on religion and tradition instead of reason and love (and God). Mary was a human being. She is not the mother of God. She is not divine.

Yes, of course she is not divine. However, she is the mother of God by simple logic.

Jesus Christ Is God.
Mary Is Jesus Christ's Mother.
Therefore Mary Is The Mother Of God.

I do venerate her because she found favor with the lord and said yes to God. Those traits mark the characteristics of a Christian which I and other Catholics try to model outselves after.

Most Protestants do not venerate Mary. Many also firmly believe in the Trinity, yet still do not consider Mary to be God's Mother. In their eyes, Mary was a human vessel by which Christ would be conceived in the flesh. Jesus didn't even address his mother as "Mother," but rather as "woman."

Jesus is divine, in that He is God's Son - but not necessarily God Himself.
Mary is human; she gave birth to Christ in his bodily form, but did not create the spirit of Jesus - nor was she with God and Christ in heaven as the wife of God or anything like that.

I'm not so sure about labeling Christ as God and visa versa, but I definitely I feel uncomfortable deifying Mary in such a manner.

I believe that Jesus is God's Son. I believe He was a Human also. However, I believe he was without sin only because of his divine nature. I do not believe that Jesus = the Father, since Jesus prayed to God, was asking God for alternatives when He knew death was upon him, but submitted to God's will. He worshiped God. He was "made" lesser than the angels, but after death was glorified by God and placed at God's right Hand. He is our intercessor and mediator between God and men. He is one with God in nature and purpose. And He is our Savior.

But that doesn't mean Jesus = God. That's a leap in logic that confuses me. I was raised to believe in the Trinity, but I have a hard time computing it, and other Biblical passages make it harder to accept fully. It actually makes prayer and everything else complicated because I'm not bought on either interpretation. I still pray in Christ's name and I pray to God of course.



[center]===2===[/center]

2.) Personal Relationship with Christ isn't even in the Bible (as far as I know). Accepting Christ into your heart isn't in the Bible. Where do these things come from? I love Jesus and I love God, I have a relationship with God, and I depend on God for my Salvation via Christ, but still...

This is why the view of Sola Scriptura lacks in alot of departments. If you don't think that a personal relationship with Christ is a prerequisite to being a Christians, then what is? The uniqueness of Christianity is that it is based upon a man who was fully God and Human, who died for while we were sinners even though we had done nothing to deserve this. If one does not know and love Christ then I would consider them to be a "lapsed" Christian.

The thing is, "personal relationship with Christ" is very much a Protestant idea that culminated during the 1800s. The idea of a personal relationship with Christ is an evangelical doctrine -- the phrase or concept isn't really in the Bible.

However, without some sort of relationship to God, Christianity would amount to nothing more than another legalistic religious system.

There is plenty of evidence of relationships between God and man. Jesus said the only way to God was via Him. And that if we loved Him(Jesus), we would keep God's commands to do good and love one another.

There is clearly a distinction of persons, even in the widely accepted doctrine of the Trinity -- you have to acknowledge at least that much. That alone can be confusing.

However, I have always loved Christ and God ever since I could remember -- without a relationship of some sort with God - my faith would just be an empty religion, at least for me.



[center]===3===[/center]

5.) Prayer is good but action is better.

Of course, one can demonstrate their faith through their actions but one cannot demonstrate their faith without actions.

However, those actions and works cannot do anything to save a person. It is only by God's grace that people are saved, not because of anything they have done to earn grace. Doing good is still required however, the will to do it should be natural if one truly loves God.



[center]===4===[/center]

Given my beliefs above, do you think I will be among those who Jesus is talking about here?

21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

SOURCE

I've often considered -- what if to prove my salvation, I just adopted more conservative, literal and religious ideas and values. If I believed Genesis was literal history, that the Bible was infallible, that gays were going to hell, that God = Jesus and Jesus = Grape Juice ... and if I believed everything my pastor told me -- if that would please God and if I would really be a saved Christian then.

I do not interpret Genesis literally, I "believe" in science as a powerful tool for inquiry, I believe that gays are accepted and loved by God and are not damned to hell. However, this all goes back to having a personal relationship with Christ. The way I see it is that all God asks is for us to recognize the grace and love he's bestowed on us, so the scripture is absolutly correct. A personal relationship is really all that matter and its the basis of the Christian Faith. Church, community, and fellowship are great, but they can only stand if the individual has a strong rock to lean on.

I believe that science is our only objective resource to describe the mysteries of the universe in a logical natural manner. While I believe that Genesis is largely myth, that doesn't make it unworthy of being read -- nor does it make it irrelevant.

I also believe in a relationship with God, even though it can be confusing as to how I should think of Christ at times - I love both of them though - and they matter more to me than any pastor, church or doctrine. God has practically been my only truly personal friend since childhood, so I totally get the importance of relationship.

That's my whole argument is that Christ came so that we could know God; he didn't come so that we could partake in a new religious order.