Christian Theology

[WinePusher]

This thread is devoted to discuss the key tenants of the Christian Faith among fellow Christians. Here are some bedrock Christian Beliefs that have been I have heard challenged. Disclaimer: these are not my personal beliefs.

1) Substitutionary Atonement: It shows God to be an evil, vengeful God. It's states that God requires sacrifice and bloodshed in order for forgiveness, similar to Early Puritan Theology such as the sermon (Sinners in the hands of an Angry God." Is there some other means of atonement other then Substitutionary Atonement, or do you think this is sound theology?

2) Communion: Should the focus be on the real presense of Christ in the bread and win, or should the focus be on the historical context (consubstantiation) of the Last Supper?

3) Justification: How is one justified before God? Can a person be justified and saved without expressing a belief that Jesus Christ is their personal lord and savior?

[fewwillfindit]

I don't have the energy to tackle question 2 right now, but 1 and 3 are so elementary they could be combined and reworded into the following question: "Is the Bible true or isn't it?"

[Kuan]

I heard a parable (or analogy, not sure which one it is) about number one that made a lot of sense to me. Of course it is about the mormon idea of #1...

Anyways, one I think is challenged a ton that you might want to consider adding to that list would be the fall of man, or would this be classified already under one of those?

[WinePusher]

I don't have the energy to tackle question 2 right now, but 1 and 3 are so elementary they could be combined and reworded into the following question: "Is the Bible true or isn't it?"

I agree that substitutionary atonement is a bedrock principle to Christianity, and disagree wholeheartedly with my old professor who advocated aganist this. But justification is a different issue. A reading of the Bible would indicate that faith alone is not sufficent enough for justification, but requires works as well. As James says, works prove the genuiness of your faith.

Also, I believe that those who are not Christian have the oppurtunity for salvation as well, which is obviously a form of universalism. So, my contention is that is someone is not a Christian (does not believe in God or Jesus Christ) but they are good people, they are clearly living out the Gospel message and are filled with the Holy Spirit. Your works show the inner state of your mind. Also, I have trouble believing that a bible believing christian who does not do charity and does not do what the gospel commands has been justified before God.

Anyways, one I think is challenged a ton that you might want to consider adding to that list would be the fall of man, or would this be classified already under one of those?

This would be harmatiology, and it's a good point. My problems with this are:

1) Is penance a one time deal, or a continual process (such as frequent visitations to Reconciliation)
2) Does baptism do anything to remove original sin (or total depravity)?

[Kuan]

Anyways, one I think is challenged a ton that you might want to consider adding to that list would be the fall of man, or would this be classified already under one of those?

This would be harmatiology, and it's a good point. My problems with this are:

1) Is penance a one time deal, or a continual process (such as frequent visitations to Reconciliation)
2) Does baptism do anything to remove original sin (or total depravity)?

Sperate thread or would this be appropriate in here do you think? Cause I am interested in this.

[theopoesis]

1) Substitutionary Atonement: It shows God to be an evil, vengeful God. It's states that God requires sacrifice and bloodshed in order for forgiveness, similar to Early Puritan Theology such as the sermon (Sinners in the hands of an Angry God." Is there some other means of atonement other then Substitutionary Atonement, or do you think this is sound theology?

I agree that substitutionary atonement is a bedrock principle to Christianity

Before I say this, I'll say that I agree with Winepusher that substitutionary atonement is extremely important, and I accept it personally. But I do have a question I'd love some feedback on...

The early church in particular had numerous models of atonement (theosis, recapitulation, ransom), but substitutionary atonement wasn't common. What does this mean? Can one be saved by faith in Christ's death and resurrection without understanding precisely how that death and resurrection leads to salvation?

I guess I'm wondering this because if we say yes, you must understand, then the argument in #1 has much heavier consequences than if you can be saved while rejecting substitutionary atonement if you still have faith in Christ.

[Kuan]

1) Substitutionary Atonement: It shows God to be an evil, vengeful God. It's states that God requires sacrifice and bloodshed in order for forgiveness, similar to Early Puritan Theology such as the sermon (Sinners in the hands of an Angry God." Is there some other means of atonement other then Substitutionary Atonement, or do you think this is sound theology?

I agree that substitutionary atonement is a bedrock principle to Christianity

Before I say this, I'll say that I agree with Winepusher that substitutionary atonement is extremely important, and I accept it personally. But I do have a question I'd love some feedback on...

The early church in particular had numerous models of atonement (theosis, recapitulation, ransom), but substitutionary atonement wasn't common. What does this mean? Can one be saved by faith in Christ's death and resurrection without understanding precisely how that death and resurrection leads to salvation?

I guess I'm wondering this because if we say yes, you must understand, then the argument in #1 has much heavier consequences than if you can be saved while rejecting substitutionary atonement if you still have faith in Christ.

I dont believe in substitutionary atonement, and im not sure what the other terms are...but id have to say that you can be saved without any knowledge of the atonement. I think that you would be judged by your actions rather than your faith.

[theopoesis]

I dont believe in substitutionary atonement, and im not sure what the other terms are...but id have to say that you can be saved without any knowledge of the atonement. I think that you would be judged by your actions rather than your faith.

I'm curious here... If you are judged and saved by your actions, as you claim, are we saved without any knowledge of the atonement, or without any atonement. What form does atonement take in your mind, if I may ask? No pressure to answer, as your views were not the topic of the OP, but I did think it worth asking.

[fewwillfindit]

I don't have the energy to tackle question 2 right now, but 1 and 3 are so elementary they could be combined and reworded into the following question: "Is the Bible true or isn't it?"

I agree that substitutionary atonement is a bedrock principle to Christianity, and disagree wholeheartedly with my old professor who advocated aganist this. But justification is a different issue. A reading of the Bible would indicate that faith alone is not sufficent enough for justification, but requires works as well. As James says, works prove the genuiness of your faith.

Right. But we are not saved by our works, they are one of the evidences that we are truly believers and thus saved. Paul admonished us to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the Faith. Works are one of the evidences that we can look at to guage this. We must be very careful to draw that line of distinction, else we become responsible, and thus receive the credit, for our salvation.

...So, my contention is that is someone is not a Christian (does not believe in God or Jesus Christ) but they are good people, they are clearly living out the Gospel message and are filled with the Holy Spirit. Your works show the inner state of your mind.

How do you reconcile that viewpoint with the following scriptures?

1 John 5:10-12

10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 5:21-23

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Acts 4:11-12

11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Thes. 5:9

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Hebrews 5:9

And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[fewwillfindit]

I dont believe in substitutionary atonement

Do you believe in atonement?