It's not always easy to find people who are willing to engage in conversations about spiritual matters. We're called to be witnesses, and I'm constantly looking for an opportunity to share the Gospel. I thought this forum would be a good place to clear up misconceptions about Christianity, defend Christian theology, and call people to embrace the Good News. I thought this forum would be full of people who had some specific concern or objection to Christianity, and those people were just waiting for someone to explain away their concerns.
I was idealistic.
I was wrong.
2 Timothy 2:14 says:
Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
This forum is full of people who just want to argue. I have found that they are, for the most part, unwilling to consider that they're wrong. Things always become quarrelsome. Everyone thinks they're right. The result is weird interpretations of Scripture so that it aligns with an individual's beliefs, unwillingness to admit mistakes, personal attacks, and very poor argumentation. We've all seen it.
I am convinced that most of the people on here aren't seeking Christ with an open mind. That's become abundantly clear after too many question begging threads, hostile attitudes, and appeals to "agree to disagree" after logic revealed the emptiness of their position. It was my mistake to think this forum would have open-minded people looking for Jesus. Turns out, most non-Christians join this site because they want to debate against Christianity.
The Bible says a lot about false teachers. From what I can tell, they outnumber us on this forum.
2 Peter 2:1 says:
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Have you noticed people constantly misrepresenting your argument, battling the straw men they have created, and not seeming to even be aware of their error? It's like they're not even listening and completely don't understand what they read in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 1:18 says (see also 1 John 5:6):
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
It hit me especially hard today because there's a thread arguing that Christ-followers should not eat food with blood in it. But 1 Timothy 4:1-5 clearly states that this is a false teaching that comes from demons:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
2 John 1 tells us exactly what we should do when we encounter false teachers.
2 John 1:9-11 says:
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
Paul tells Timothy to avoid discussion based on false knowledge (1 Timothy 6:20). He told Titus the same thing.
Titus 3:9 says:
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
We are called to be witnesses testifying to the truth of the Gospel and the love, forgiveness, grace, and mercy of God. But I propose that this website is not for us. This forum is where people go to fight about Christianity, focusing on the controversies and dissensions.
Again, 2 Timothy 2:14 says:
Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
In light of what the Bible says, and in conjunction with my experiences in this forum, I can no longer participate. This is my last post.
I hope others leave, too.
2 Timothy 2:14
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we-live-now
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Re: 2 Timothy 2:14
Post #11[Replying to post 1 by Euphrates]
This is a GREAT post with a lot of truth in it. This is what I came here for as well - to connect and fellowship with other believers such as yourself. Here are a couple things to keep in mind (that I often forget!).
1) No human can believe God by himself. A man's natural mind does NOT understand things of God and can NOT know God unless God reveals himself. 1 Cor 2:14. I think we forget this, I know I do. Even as believers, we often operate out of our natural mind. It is out of this natural mind that logic and arguments spring forth whereas the Spirit-minded person just hears "YES!" inside or "Hmmm, that doesn't line up with what I know from scripture". Our Spirit mind reveals truth to us, but our natural mind tries to understand it and explain it. Not always possible.
2) God is the one who reveals himself inside us. He controls the timing of it. However, it does come by hear the Word of Christ so sharing the good news is very important. However, if God doesn't flip the switch of faith inside (which I believe is Christ himself who is the light of every man) that person's time has not yet come. Time to move on. Maybe you are just watering the seed?
Thanks for the reminders and remember it isn't about us doing what is right or wrong. God will lead us where he wants us to go. So, maybe we are here for a season and then move on somewhere else...
we-live-now
This is a GREAT post with a lot of truth in it. This is what I came here for as well - to connect and fellowship with other believers such as yourself. Here are a couple things to keep in mind (that I often forget!).
1) No human can believe God by himself. A man's natural mind does NOT understand things of God and can NOT know God unless God reveals himself. 1 Cor 2:14. I think we forget this, I know I do. Even as believers, we often operate out of our natural mind. It is out of this natural mind that logic and arguments spring forth whereas the Spirit-minded person just hears "YES!" inside or "Hmmm, that doesn't line up with what I know from scripture". Our Spirit mind reveals truth to us, but our natural mind tries to understand it and explain it. Not always possible.
2) God is the one who reveals himself inside us. He controls the timing of it. However, it does come by hear the Word of Christ so sharing the good news is very important. However, if God doesn't flip the switch of faith inside (which I believe is Christ himself who is the light of every man) that person's time has not yet come. Time to move on. Maybe you are just watering the seed?
Thanks for the reminders and remember it isn't about us doing what is right or wrong. God will lead us where he wants us to go. So, maybe we are here for a season and then move on somewhere else...
we-live-now
Post #12
I came on forums like this several years ago, then took several years off. Before round one, I had spent many years in church, but never really been challenged. I found myself in severe doubt after that. I didn't really question anyone's premises, and often got caught up in arguments I couldn't win.
But now I've come on here and found that, though I'm hearing the same arguments by nonbelievers, I'm less prone to taking their word for it. I've realized that, previously, I had really succumbed more to name-calling arguments than to sound logic. Calling someone a bigot doesn't constitute an argument, for instance... I've found myself better able to ignore those kind of statements. Many opposing arguments are "valid" but not "sound". I never checked anyone's sources before... now I've found it refreshing to note that the credibility of online sources is often suspect.
Something else I've learned is that my Granddad was right... nobody wins an argument. But we can learn from arguing. What works, what doesn't? On here, it's a lot more of the "what doesn't". From that I've gleaned that maybe debate isn't the best form of evangelism. So I'm not here to evangelize. I'm here to learn.
Finally, though I believe that absolute truth does exist, I've checked myself - I may not know quite what it is. My personal perception of truth might not line up with God's version of truth. There are a lot of different Christian perspectives on here. There are a lot of others who also believe in absolute truth, in God, in Jesus, but still disagree with me. Which of them are right? I'm not just going to buy into every opinion simultaneously (pluralism)... but I need to be aware of other Christian opinions, so that I'm not leaning on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). Something inside is telling me that mainstream Christianity is missing something, and the impact of that hole definitely shows its face in the world around me. I'd like to know what it is.
But now I've come on here and found that, though I'm hearing the same arguments by nonbelievers, I'm less prone to taking their word for it. I've realized that, previously, I had really succumbed more to name-calling arguments than to sound logic. Calling someone a bigot doesn't constitute an argument, for instance... I've found myself better able to ignore those kind of statements. Many opposing arguments are "valid" but not "sound". I never checked anyone's sources before... now I've found it refreshing to note that the credibility of online sources is often suspect.
Something else I've learned is that my Granddad was right... nobody wins an argument. But we can learn from arguing. What works, what doesn't? On here, it's a lot more of the "what doesn't". From that I've gleaned that maybe debate isn't the best form of evangelism. So I'm not here to evangelize. I'm here to learn.
Finally, though I believe that absolute truth does exist, I've checked myself - I may not know quite what it is. My personal perception of truth might not line up with God's version of truth. There are a lot of different Christian perspectives on here. There are a lot of others who also believe in absolute truth, in God, in Jesus, but still disagree with me. Which of them are right? I'm not just going to buy into every opinion simultaneously (pluralism)... but I need to be aware of other Christian opinions, so that I'm not leaning on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). Something inside is telling me that mainstream Christianity is missing something, and the impact of that hole definitely shows its face in the world around me. I'd like to know what it is.
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we-live-now
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- Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:20 am
Post #13
[Replying to Wissing]
Wow wissing! There is a LOT OF wisdom and humility in what you say. I really like your last statement about "mainstream Christianity".
I really believe that it is more 'religion" that true relationship with God through Christ. They want to develop a following via any means necessary, fear, intimidation, shame, etc. just to build a large building or say "I had this many converts!". That is religion and it's all about the flesh (man) and not God.
I came from that for the first 8 years of my Christian walk. Then, an AMAZING THING happened! God started revealing the incredible things in his Word that I wasn't hearing in my church. It started with one single verse - 1 John 1:9. I was STUNNED for about 3-4 days when the Lord spoke to me on that one. This really started to blow me away and he was confirming them as truth both inside me and in my life. The Word really came to life before my very eyes.
I thought my Church would be VERY excited to hear these amazing things! But, the opposite was true. They wouldn't even look at the verses with me much less discuss them. They just told me I was deceived and some of my closest friends in the Church turned against me. Then, the words of Jesus really started to ring true, that we will be persecuted when we believe the true Gospel. I just didn't realize who would do that! The true gospel is REALLY GOOD news, but the one religion teaches is not because in that version man has to finish it himself. Religious man loves the gospel that he can finish so he can take some credit, but he hates the true Gospel - the one that Christ completely finished! Once the Lord started to speak directly inside me and I could hear him, life has not been the same. His Word is so alive and active, deep and rich.
I pray that you would discover that too. I believe you will because your heart is in the right place to receive it. Just look for teachers like Joseph Prince, Steve McVey, Clark Whitten, Paul White and the such. They have been given the revelation on the finished work and when you hear it, it will cause LIFE to spring forth in good soil. But, confirm EVERYTHING with the Spirit and true teacher inside you. Once you learn to hear and follow his voice, your life will never be the same.
God bless,
we-live-now
Wow wissing! There is a LOT OF wisdom and humility in what you say. I really like your last statement about "mainstream Christianity".
I really believe that it is more 'religion" that true relationship with God through Christ. They want to develop a following via any means necessary, fear, intimidation, shame, etc. just to build a large building or say "I had this many converts!". That is religion and it's all about the flesh (man) and not God.
I came from that for the first 8 years of my Christian walk. Then, an AMAZING THING happened! God started revealing the incredible things in his Word that I wasn't hearing in my church. It started with one single verse - 1 John 1:9. I was STUNNED for about 3-4 days when the Lord spoke to me on that one. This really started to blow me away and he was confirming them as truth both inside me and in my life. The Word really came to life before my very eyes.
I thought my Church would be VERY excited to hear these amazing things! But, the opposite was true. They wouldn't even look at the verses with me much less discuss them. They just told me I was deceived and some of my closest friends in the Church turned against me. Then, the words of Jesus really started to ring true, that we will be persecuted when we believe the true Gospel. I just didn't realize who would do that! The true gospel is REALLY GOOD news, but the one religion teaches is not because in that version man has to finish it himself. Religious man loves the gospel that he can finish so he can take some credit, but he hates the true Gospel - the one that Christ completely finished! Once the Lord started to speak directly inside me and I could hear him, life has not been the same. His Word is so alive and active, deep and rich.
I pray that you would discover that too. I believe you will because your heart is in the right place to receive it. Just look for teachers like Joseph Prince, Steve McVey, Clark Whitten, Paul White and the such. They have been given the revelation on the finished work and when you hear it, it will cause LIFE to spring forth in good soil. But, confirm EVERYTHING with the Spirit and true teacher inside you. Once you learn to hear and follow his voice, your life will never be the same.
God bless,
we-live-now
