Invitation to discuss "Grace and Truth"

[Volbrigade]

Greetings!

I've been an intermittent and infrequent poster here for a few years -- a regular on another board, where I have become somewhat weary of the same conversations (the event or article du jour being the only source of variety) with the same people; most of whom I refer to as "Whateverists": people who have accepted their lifelong indoctrination into materialist presuppositions, and who have developed vague and incoherent beliefs in any and everything except the Truth of Jesus Christ (basically, as I have pointed out many times, their god is randomness, which propelled unguided processes that have culminated with the manifestation of that god in the flesh. It is an incarnate god that greets them in the bathroom mirror every morning).

So, I return here in peace, looking for a little interesting dialogue, preferably with fellow believers (conversation with the neo-pagan unbelievers generally reaching a point of diminishing returns within a few exchanges ).

Being pretty unfamiliar with the protocols here, I submitted a post called "Grace and Truth" on the "Christianity and Apologetics" forum; only to have it removed to the "Random Ramblings" discussion area.

I have no quibble with that, but I thought I would invite anyone who might be interested to peruse the topic, and share any thoughts or comments.

Here is the URL, which I will attempt to make clickable (not sure if I'll be successful, however... )

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... hp?t=24044

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 10 by we-live-now]

Very interesting insights and perspective, WLN. I am not familiar with the gentlemen you referenced; but I do agree that the riches of His grace cannot be overemphasized.

Your post has prompted the following thoughts.

First -- it continually astounds me that God's grace and truth are so deep, so limitless, that we (and that "we" includes every Biblical scholar that has ever lived) can study His scripture without ever exhausting new insights into it. For instance, as many times as I've read Paul's amazing sustained argument in Romans, I never had paused to consider the ramifications of verse 11:32. I thank you for bringing that to the fore!

Isn't it particularly interesting that that pronouncement comes near the conclusion of the three-chapter interlude in which he details how God's unconditional promises to the Jews -- the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- which had yet to be fulfilled, are still in effect? As the verse following #32 states:

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Otherwise, I would add only one caveat to what you write here, given in all love and humility, and based on a cursory glance at the websites of the men you cite in your post:

While God's grace (again, expressed in truth, with which it is inseparable, like space and time), of which Jesus Christ is the full expression, is THE central story of the integrated message system which is our Bible: it is important, and we are blessed to have the freedom, to engage in a thorough study of "the whole counsel of God". And it is only by Grace that we are able to undertake a true understanding of that counsel, through the illumination by the Holy Spirit.

I say that because -- and I think you'll agree here -- there are some teachers that emphasize our freedom from sin through Christ's grace, to the point of excusing sinful behavior. Paul himself warned of this danger, both in the very next chapter in Romans (12:1,2):

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

and here, in Roman 6:1,2:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Again, I say this only because we, as humans, are prone to muck things up, and not in response to anything that you, or the sources you cite, have said or implied.

I just think it is important that we never lose sight of the truth that grace is "the freedom from sin" -- not the freedom to sin.

Or, as the late Adrian Rogers so succinctly put it:

"I sin all I want to. I just don't WANT to."

Can I get an amen?

[we-live-now]

[Replying to post 11 by Volbrigade]

Hey Volbrigade! I see you are figuring out the quotes feature. NICE!

I can heartily say "AMEN!" to what you say. And I have to say that reading your writing is like a joy ride. You say it in so many words that I don't often know where you are going. And I mean that in a good way because I can read into most writings and know where they are going, but with yours, I can not.

Here is the MOST AMAZING thing about the TRUE revelation of the new creation and the FINISHED WORK of Christ (and you hinted upon it at the end)....

WE ARE NEW and our TRUE self doesn't want to sin! It's impossible for it to want to because it is literally part of God himself! If it does, it is NOT the new creation. However, the flesh will continue to want to sin as it contains the power of sin. So, we are still trapped inside a container that does want to sin at times. But, the real US doesn't! Anyone who is afraid of releasing a person to TRUE GRACE due to fear of sin, has not been revealed this amazing truth.

God bless you.

we-live-now

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 12 by we-live-now]

Once again, thank you for your kind words, WLN. And for another thought-provoking response.

The great thing about discussion with believers is that it is almost always expanding, opening itself up to greater consideration of God's Truth, which leads to the possibility of greater understanding. For years I have engaged with unbelievers of varying degrees of militancy, and the process is just the opposite -- conversations begin with generalities (e.g., "how did the universe begin?") and narrow down to a point of intractability, predicated on adverse presuppositions (in the case mentioned, it would be "how can something that has a beginning -- the universe -- exist without causation?"); at which point, the unbeliever generally makes some sort of vague accusation about the believer being "anti-science" (often with insults of a more personal nature added in ) and/or retreats into the cypersphere, not to be heard from again until they are making the same arguments that were already shipwrecked, but on another thread.

Just a little digression, which I offer free of charge.

I want to share with you a couple of thoughts that your posts have stirred up with me.

I am grateful to your for emphasizing how we have been born into the darkness that God has subjected "the natural realm of the flesh" to. Excellent use of the quote from Isaiah to emphasize that point.

Paul amplifies on this, here (Romans 8:20-23):

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

And we know that the creation was "subjected to futility" because God cursed it "for our sake" (Genesis 3:17). Paul explains why it was cursed, and how it was for our sake: that all would be committed to disobedience, so that all could be saved through Jesus Christ!

And yet, at the same time that we are "at war with the flesh" (Galatians 5, cf v. 17), and exist in a natural, material world that is a fallen version of the one God created; it is amazing to contemplate its context with the transcendent spiritual world that it is a subset of.

The fact that God created it (perfect) in the first place; for the purpose of creating creatures with free will who could choose to love Him; knowing the choice they would make, and what that choice would cost Him. And He obviously decided that it was worth the cost; that in some sense beyond our comprehension, a redeemed creation would be even better than an initially perfect one.

This was brought to mind, because in contemplating the dichotomy between flesh and spirit, the Holy Communion sprang into my mind; and how God uses matter -- the bread and wind, the body and blood -- to sustain our spiritual lives. And how Our Lord "emptied Himself of His glory" to take on a material, fleshly form, that suffered every facet of our existence in this plane -- i.e., development from a zygote within the womb; birth; poverty and toil; humiliation; and ultimately death -- all on our behalf.

"No greater love."

And at the back of these thoughts, the words of C. S. Lewis: "God likes matter. He invented it."

So, these are just some thoughts that came to me, in contemplation of our conversation so far. I really don't have a conclusion for them -- just offering them up for your consideration.

I suppose I could tie them to an eschatological view -- that is, if you believe that the Millennial reign is yet to come, then you're likely to conclude that one of its features will be the rectifying of the effects of the Fall on this world; perhaps to bring to completion God's plan, before the creation of a "new heaven and a new earth"?

And with that, I'll leave off for now...

[we-live-now]

[Replying to post 12 by we-live-now]

Once again, thank you for your kind words, WLN. And for another thought-provoking response.

The great thing about discussion with believers is that it is almost always expanding, opening itself up to greater consideration of God's Truth, which leads to the possibility of greater understanding. For years I have engaged with unbelievers of varying degrees of militancy, and the process is just the opposite -- conversations begin with generalities (e.g., "how did the universe begin?") and narrow down to a point of intractability, predicated on adverse presuppositions (in the case mentioned, it would be "how can something that has a beginning -- the universe -- exist without causation?"); at which point, the unbeliever generally makes some sort of vague accusation about the believer being "anti-science" (often with insults of a more personal nature added in ) and/or retreats into the cypersphere, not to be heard from again until they are making the same arguments that were already shipwrecked, but on another thread.

Just a little digression, which I offer free of charge.

I want to share with you a couple of thoughts that your posts have stirred up with me.

I am grateful to your for emphasizing how we have been born into the darkness that God has subjected "the natural realm of the flesh" to. Excellent use of the quote from Isaiah to emphasize that point.

Paul amplifies on this, here (Romans 8:20-23):

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

And we know that the creation was "subjected to futility" because God cursed it "for our sake" (Genesis 3:17). Paul explains why it was cursed, and how it was for our sake: that all would be committed to disobedience, so that all could be saved through Jesus Christ!

And yet, at the same time that we are "at war with the flesh" (Galatians 5, cf v. 17), and exist in a natural, material world that is a fallen version of the one God created; it is amazing to contemplate its context with the transcendent spiritual world that it is a subset of.

The fact that God created it (perfect) in the first place; for the purpose of creating creatures with free will who could choose to love Him; knowing the choice they would make, and what that choice would cost Him. And He obviously decided that it was worth the cost; that in some sense beyond our comprehension, a redeemed creation would be even better than an initially perfect one.

This was brought to mind, because in contemplating the dichotomy between flesh and spirit, the Holy Communion sprang into my mind; and how God uses matter -- the bread and wind, the body and blood -- to sustain our spiritual lives. And how Our Lord "emptied Himself of His glory" to take on a material, fleshly form, that suffered every facet of our existence in this plane -- i.e., development from a zygote within the womb; birth; poverty and toil; humiliation; and ultimately death -- all on our behalf.

"No greater love."

And at the back of these thoughts, the words of C. S. Lewis: "God likes matter. He invented it."

So, these are just some thoughts that came to me, in contemplation of our conversation so far. I really don't have a conclusion for them -- just offering them up for your consideration.

I suppose I could tie them to an eschatological view -- that is, if you believe that the Millennial reign is yet to come, then you're likely to conclude that one of its features will be the rectifying of the effects of the Fall on this world; perhaps to bring to completion God's plan, before the creation of a "new heaven and a new earth"?

And with that, I'll leave off for now...

Wow Volbrigade! You certainly didn't leave me with a simple formula to solve! Those certainly are "deep thoughts by Volbrigade"! It's not about me and my wisdom anyway. I have NO wisdom without Christ! You said some VERY encouraging things in there and I am very excited in my spirit about what I believe God is going to reveal to you! Your heart and mind are so open and that is rare!

There are very few Christians who truly see the present darkness that we are living in and how all of us were/are "subjected to vanity by our creator". Many want to criticize others for their inability to "see". Many feel they are somehow superior to others who can't "see". However, Jesus told his diciples an amazing thing that the crowds were purposely NOT given insight otherwise they would "repent and be healed"! WHAT?

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?� 11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,


‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

That floored me the first time I really "saw" that. Why wouldn't Jesus not want to heal everyone? I believe it was because it was not their time, yet! He was sent only to the "lost sheep of Israel" only and not to teach everyone according to Matt 15:24. However, he was, of course, to die for everyone. It is just that most would remain in the darkness without his light for now.

That just floors me! So many do NOT see this. It is GOD who gives us "light" and understanding. We can NOT see anything of him unless he makes it happen inside us. Jesus is the one inside who shines the spiritual light on us so we can "see" and understand God.

Want to see such an amazingly DEEP and rich set of verses that I have skipped right over for most of my Christian walk?

In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

wow man. That is some of the richest and most amazing set of verses I have seen yet. They contain such deep and amazing spiritual truths that most are blinded to see. God has not yet shown them. However, I believe God is revealing them to you and I! I feel so humbly privileged...

Here is what I believe God is saying here. First, the spirit and life of Jesus is the light or spiritual understanding for ALL MEN. However, men are in darkness of the flesh and can NOT understand nor comprehend the light. Jesus came into the world to his own, the Jews, but they rejected him except for a small few whom God decided ahead of time that he would reveal inside them the truth. It was God's plan for only a relatively small few to "see" the light and understand the true kingdom of God. Once they do see these spiritual truths, they are born again from above! This has nothing to do with their human will, nor are they born of the flesh or blood. They are born again of God as spiritual beings to live forever! He confirms that HE did the work (and they didn't) in 1 Cor 1:30 among other places.

I find these truths to be so amazing and incredible! Once a person see's this their life will NEVER be the same. This walk with God is NOT about behavior, morality or sin. It is about LIFE and DEATH! It's about seeing the truth of what God really did and how we are brand new creatures NOW and it has NOTHING to do with our own actions or behavior. However, if we make it about our actions or behavior we are operating in the flesh and become blinded again! HE DID IT for us! Once we see that, we will NEVER be the same! We will begin to act like the righteous, humble kings he made us into.

Wow, praise Jesus and the Father for what they did for us. They love us so much.

we-live-now

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 14 by we-live-now]

I find these truths to be so amazing and incredible! Once a person see's this their life will NEVER be the same. This walk with God is NOT about behavior, morality or sin. It is about LIFE and DEATH! It's about seeing the truth of what God really did and how we are brand new creatures NOW and it has NOTHING to do with our own actions or behavior. However, if we make it about our actions or behavior we are operating in the flesh and become blinded again! HE DID IT for us! Once we see that, we will NEVER be the same! We will begin to act like the righteous, humble kings he made us into.

Wow, praise Jesus and the Father for what they did for us. They love us so much.

we-live-now

Very fine work, my friend.

I want to share something with you from a DVD that I was watching last night. My wife and I are working our way through an expository commentary on the gospel of John, by Dr. Chuck Missler. If you're not familiar with him, you might want to check out his materials, which feature his over 50 years of diligent study in the Word.

We are now in John 17 -- around the 16th or 17th hour of a 20-hour series. As you're probably aware, that is the true "Lord's Prayer": where we get an intimate insight into Jesus' direct communication with God the Father (what we commonly refer to as the "Lord's Prayer" is more accurately called the "Disciple's Prayer": He is teaching them how to pray).

Dr. Missler mentioned something that I believe relates directly to our conversation -- enough so that I jotted down a couple of references to share with you.

We're in the first verses of John 17:

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Dr. Missler emphasized, by referencing Paul, that our purpose in Christ is to know him experientially, not just intellectually. This is an ongoing, lifetime quest that we cannot complete in this "realm of darkness".

He cites Paul, who "after a lifetime of study and prayer" still professes that now he knows Jesus only "in part" (1 Cor. 13:9); and longs for the full realization of Him, "that I may know Him" (Phil. 3:10).

This "knowing" of course, is experiential. It does not stem from our attempts to "think like Him", or "behave like Him", but to actually BE like Him. This process begins the moment we accept Him as our savior, by grace, through faith; and it our promise, and hope, that it will be brought to completion (Phil. 1:6).

And you are right, my friend: if we once accept this reality, we will never be the same! Maranatha!

I'll leave off (for now) with a great quote, courtesy Dr. Missler:

The Gospel is not what God is telling you to do -- it is what He's telling you He has done.