Trinity and focus

[Elijah John]

I have a cousin who once taught his children to pray, "Dear Jesus thank you for this food, in Jesus name, Amen"

I said to him, isn't that a mistaken focus to address one's prayer? Doesn't Jesus teach one to address prayers to the Father, even while using his name?

My cousin replied, it's all the same God, part of the Trinity, so it's OK.

He even advocated Baptism in the name of Jesus, after the "name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in Jesus name, Amen."

Fair enough, but by that logic, if one prays exclusively to the Father, and worships the Father alone, isn't that honoring the Son as well (however one understands the nature of Jesus)? I'm interested in hearing responses from a Trinitarian perspective.

So for us non-Trinitarian Christians, are we, worshiping the right way in spite of ourselves? As long as we worship WITH Jesus even if we do not direct our worship TO Jesus?

And if we are wrong, won't God gently correct us in the end, and accept us in spite of our misconceptions on Earth? (if they are misconceptions)

Not looking for a debate here, as I do in other forums, but a discussion, and the sharing and comparison of ideas.

Thanks.

[Ciango]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Hello, My name is Ciango. I want to put in my perspective on this. I am a Trinitarian Christian.

Here is why I think that praying to Jesus is correct.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -John 4:6

Also, when I read this, I do not think that praying directly to the Father wold hold any ground, only when you pray to him "In Jesus' name".

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Hello, My name is Ciango. I want to put in my perspective on this. I am a Trinitarian Christian.

Here is why I think that praying to Jesus is correct.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -John 4:6

Also, when I read this, I do not think that praying directly to the Father wold hold any ground, only when you pray to him "In Jesus' name".

Hi Ciango,

Well, Jesus himself taught us to pray DIRECTLY to the Father, Hallowing the Father's name and mentioned nothing about praying in the "Son's" name in the Lord's Prayer, the main and most important prayer of Christianity.

Only in John, the latest, most recent Gospel, did Jesus ever supposedly say to pray in his own name.

[Ciango]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]


Okay, The Lord's Prayer is a very subjective topic in this discussion. Seeing as who you and I recognize as "The Lord" are different. Is there any other scripture that you can bring up to support this?

Also, I am wondering about what you believe, the specifics. Do you believe in three separate Gods, under one cause? Or Three Separate entities altogether?

One last question: Do you recognize Jesus Christ as "The Word of God"?


Sorry for all of the questions. I've seen a lot of different kinds of "Non-Trinitarians", and would not like to waste our time.

The word for "God" in the Hebrew is "Elohim", the "-im" in the word "Elohim" is commonly used and a suffix in order to make a singular word plural.

Some Examples:

Cherub (Singular)
Cherubim (Plural)

Seraph (Singular)
Seraphim (Plural)

Seeing as the word "Elohim" is used in a singular context. It would be like, in English: "Gods said...... or Gods did.....". So, at first glance this looks like a grammatical error, I think it is God hinting at the Trinity.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 4 by Ciango]

Fair questions.

I believe that the Father alone is God, and that the Holy Spirit is part of the Father, His prescence in and among us.

I believe that Jesus was more in tune and filled with the Holy Spirit than most.

Although I do not believe in Jesus Divinity, I do believe in his Lordship, in that I accept his pre-eminance among the prophets.

I consider myself a Christian because Jesus is MY prophet, just like a Muslim would say that Mohammed is HIS prophet.

And I consider myself a Christian because I :

-I worship Jesus's God, our Father, JHVH
-I use Jesus prayer, the Lord's prayer as the basis of my own prayer life, and
-I embrace and try to practice Jesus Golden Rule, to treat others as I would like to be treated.

Simple as that.

I would call myself a Christian Deist, because I believe in the teachings of Jesus, the reality of his Father, our Father, but not in the unique "Divinity of Christ" or the whole blood atonement thing.

I do not believe the Father needs to be appeased with blood, human OR animal, in order to be able to forgive.

Hope that helps.

[Ciango]

[Replying to Ciango]


You have no idea how refreshing this is. Thank you, I do not see any asinine behavior, nor do I see and sign of passive-aggressive tendencies. (As I do in many others on this site) I'm very glad that we can have a friendly conversation.

"I believe that the Father alone is God, and that the Holy Spirit is part of the Father, His prescence in and among us."

Form how you describe the holly spirit: "...the Holy Spirit is part of the Father, His presence in and among us." So, would it be safe to say that you believe that these two identities are One?

"I believe that Jesus was more in tune and filled with the Holy Spirit than most.Although I do not believe in Jesus Divinity, I do believe in his Lordship, in that I accept his per-eminance among the prophets.I consider myself a Christian because Jesus is MY prophet, just like a Muslim would say that Mohammed is HIS prophet. "

This is why I think that Jesus was more than a prophet.

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."- Romans 8:9

As you can see, being baptized in the name of Jesus allows you to have the Holy Spirit. If he was just a prophet, then I'm sure that people like Elijah or Moses would be eligible to have this privilege as well. Yet, we never hear of anyone being baptized in their names. This is why I think that Jesus was God incarnate, because only God can give the Holy Spirit.



"I would call myself a Christian Deist, because I believe in the teachings of Jesus, the reality of his Father, our Father, but not in the unique "Divinity of Christ" or the whole blood atonement thing.

I do not believe the Father needs to be appeased with blood, human OR animal, in order to be able to forgive."

Okay, then how do you think that God atones for sin? Because he is a loving God? to a degree, but he is also a Just God. "Hear my voice according to Your loving kindness; O Lord, revive me according to Your justice." - Psalm 119:149


"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen." - 2 Corinthians 13:14

Here we can see Christ, The Father, and the Holy spirit working in unity.
(Also see:Romans 14:17-18; 15:16;1 Corinthians 2:2-5; 6:11; 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:14-19; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:6-8; 1Thessalonians 1:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Titus 3:4-6)

Also, I would like to compare some of the things that Jesus has said, in comparison to The Father.

"On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink." - John 7:37

compared to The Father, who says:

"And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts." -Revelation 21:6

Thanks again. I'm sorry that I may not be able to respond to any posts right away, I am busy. So, please just be patient with me.

[Ciango]

[Replying to post 6 by Ciango]

I am sorry, I forgot to add one last thing about the trinity. I would recommend reading Judges 13.

"So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.

22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!� -Judges 13: 11-22


This explains that The Angel of the Lord is God.


The Angel of the Lord is also Christ. This website summarizes it pretty well.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publication ... milarities

So therefore, Christ is God.

"I and My Father are one." John 10:30

Sorry again for this late addition to my original response.