Avoiding Purgatory

[myth-one.com]

Purgatory is a place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The wages of sin is death, all mankind sinned, and all are headed for the second death. God sends His Son to the Earth, Jesus lives a sinless life, and does not have to die. Therefore, He can sacrifice His life to pay the penalty for our sins. But if Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, why must the "souls of the just" atone for the temporal punishments due to sin by suffering more in purgatory?

That is, if Jesus paid our penalty, must we suffer more? There is no need for purgatory if Jesus truly paid our penalty for sinning! The sins of believers are forgiven. We enter the Kingdom of God as spotless, sinless children of God.

Question: If Catholics believe Jesus died for their sins, how can they also believe they must suffer more for those same sins? Did Jesus' sacrifice not quite pay the penalty for Catholics?

[Amadeus]

I can't see how believing that when I die I am going to burn for a time to pay for my sins would help me sleep better!

Also, I would argue that the doctrine of purgatory makes atonement meaningless, because the Bible claims that Christ died to redeem a people for God and that His blood cleanses from all sin. His death restored our relationship with God. To believe that we must pay for our own sin after all that is to say that Christ died for nothing.

[Slopeshoulder]

I can't see how believing that when I die I am going to burn for a time to pay for my sins would help me sleep better!

I never said you'd burn, and if you did it would be in your soul/psyche. I never said you'd "pay." I did say that ongoing soul work was an interssting solution to the binary conundrum of sin and atonment theology focused on heaven and hell. I also implied that I found the idea compassionate rather than austere.

Also, I would argue that the doctrine of purgatory makes atonement meaningless, because the Bible claims that Christ died to redeem a people for God and that His blood cleanses from all sin. His death restored our relationship with God. To believe that we must pay for our own sin after all that is to say that Christ died for nothing.

No, it says, and I repeat, that many people find the binary aspect of heaven-hell as allegedly laid out in the bible, pre-purgatory theology, and modern fundamentalism to be unsatisfactory. What you describe does not overcome this dissatisfaction, this binary trap and the inhumane or jejune options it suggests (i.e. almost everybody goes to heaven, or almost everybody goes to hell, or "god is mysterious and ain't I lucky," the latter invented by Calvin BTW, all of which conscience and compassion chafe at, and no circular biblicist recitations are going to change that for most folks).

It also says that while the Jesus/Christ event or narrative may have redeemed the world and created the preconditions for your or my individual salvation, the process of sanctification is also required and not limited to any assent in a faith moment. Purgatorial soul work is no more a work than the assent to faith that you protestants make so much of. If anything it is work by God upon us, and a final assent.

I'm not saying I believe in purgatory or reincarnation. I don't. But who knows? Yet I do find it a useful construct of the religious imagination. And bazillions of Christians, from saints to bishops to my mom, and all roman, orthodox, and anglo catholics, agree.
Luther and the reformers disagreed. You disagree. No big whoop. I merely outline why people like it, from a comparative religous studies perspective and from a liberal catholic perspective. And I understanid why you reject it. But I reject the binary morass that ensues, and I point to this thread as well as the one on hell as proof.

Once again I am amused at how modern reactionary american biblicist protestants think they own Christianity. Purgatory is so nutty, but also so wise. I love it.

[Braveheart]

1 john 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

john 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

The phrase "it is finished" is the word "tetelestai". It is a bainking term meaning PAID IN FULL.

Let's also remember that the only "scriptural evidence" for purgatory there is is in the apocrypha, rejected by early church fathers who considered it extra-biblical and useful only as a cultural reference. It is historically inaccurate, condones witchcraft and refers to almsgiving as a way to buy oneself out of purgatory. This was played up by the greedy Catholic church to rob poor people on false pretenses. They sell indulgences to this day.

Early Church Fathers? By Early Church Fathers you must mean people during and after the reformation, I suppose? That's not early church fathers. Heck, that's not even Church Fathers. The "real" Early Church Fathers accepted the apocrypha for what it was: sacred scripture.

I take it that by historically inaccurate you mean how Judith calls Nebuchadnezzar king of Assyria, Baruch calls him king of Babylon. This event probably happened at the time when Babylon was ruling Assyria, and so ol' Neb. would have been king over both Assyria and Babylon. Or, it might have been a totally different Nebuchadnezzar. Believe it or not there are those who bear the same names as others. Also, it might also have been a title, like how Caesar was a title. Condones witchcraft? I assume that you are speaking of the book of Tobit, specifically this verse:

Tobit 6:5-7, "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."

The protestant argument there is "does fish gut smoke really drive away demons? Of course not!! Well, does striking a rock with a staff and having water pour from it count as witchcraft? I mean, when I hit stones with sticks, the outcome is splinters in my eyes. But then Moses did it, and wouldn't you know it, water came forth! Conclusion: it was through the power of the almighty that Tobit drove out the demon.

Ad for alms giving, that I am not so sure about. The greedy Catholic Church, as you call it, was mainly about Johann Tetzel, (yes Slopeshoulder I admit that I was wrong to call him liberal, in truth I was just trying to irk you) who sold indulgences to the people. One of his sayings were: "you can rape the virgin Mary and I will sell you an indulgence." This was in the same years as the reformation, and Tetzel was one of the reasons Martin Luther revolted. He was perfectly right in doing so, he just took it all a little too far. Indulgences today are quite different, and almost impossible to gain.

Well, there you go.

P.S. It really disgusts me to see how the Atheists over in the A room get along just fine, while we Christians are always bickering.

P.P.S. Martin Luther himself gave much credit to the Catholic Church regarding the canonization of the bible.

"We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists (Catholics)-that they posses the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we would have known nothing at all about it."

-Martin Luther

[yaright]

Notice that purgatory is for the "just" or Christians. But if Jesus died for the sins of Christians, why must our we undergo additional suffering for our sins? The penalty for our sins has already been paid. The implication is that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient!

Purgatory is a place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The wages of sin is death, all mankind sinned, and all are headed for the second death. God sends His Son to the Earth, Jesus lives a sinless life, and does not have to die. Therefore, He can sacrifice His life to pay the penalty for our sins. But if Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, why must the "souls of the just" atone for the temporal punishments due to sin by suffering more in purgatory?

That is, if Jesus paid our penalty, must we suffer more? There is no need for purgatory if Jesus truly paid our penalty for sinning! The sins of believers are forgiven. We enter the Kingdom of God as spotless, sinless children of God.

Question: If Catholics believe Jesus died for their sins, how can they also believe they must suffer more for those same sins? Did Jesus' sacrifice not quite pay the penalty for Catholics?

This is a good question.

To understand Purgatory, one must have knowledge on the Nature of Sin and its effect to the souls. In addition, we also must understand the Nature of Suffering and its effects to our souls. Punishment is different from Suffering. Sin leaves a permanent mark to our souls that only Jesus can wash away. It is true that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross purchased us from sin. But from which sin???

Salvation happened some 2000 years ago. The Act of Salvation was done once only. That means it is not everyday that Jesus died for our sins. My question from which sin are we saved by Jesus on the cross???

During the fall of man, sin entered into the world. They disobeyed the commandment given to them by God to not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. By their disobedience, sin entered into the world and death came to man.

What does 'Death' means?

Death means the separation of man from God.

When Jesus came and saffered on the cross, His death saved us from sin (death) and brought us back to God, again. That means Jesus opened the heaven for us to enter again into the kingdom of God.

The salvation offered by Jesus on the cross does not covers the sin we committed everyday. I mean, if we failed to confess this sin and we die, then it will leave a mark to our soul. Thus, making us unworthy to face God in HIS Glory. For the bible tells us that no sinners can face the HOLY God.

It is in this regard that the purification is needed when we sinned before we die. Thus, purgatory is the cleansing state for all those who died with venial sin.

It is a temporary cleansing state for the soul. It is not hell nor punishment. Souls will be undergone cleansing until such time that this soul is ready to face God in his Glory.

Concerning the question of why we continue to ask to be forgiven; Jesus gave each of us "The Lord's Prayer" This is something we say every day. In a manner of speaking, it is establishing order in God's house on a daily basis. This does not mean you were not saved. To better understand this, the Apostle Paul gave an excellent witness for those who follow in Christ's foot steps.

1 Corinthians 3;12 thru 16
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?



What is known on this earth (creation) is the image of things which cannot be seen. I like the direction you gave concerning death. It might be easier to understand that when a person dies on this earth; that person is separated from his or her family. This is the image of a spiritual matter. When we lived a life of sin, we died, and became separated from God and His family in Heaven. The 'place' we go is known by various names; but the principle is the same. That 'place' does not make us clean. When removed from that 'place' it is our faith that makes us clean.

I would like to share another small facet of Creation Language with you. Have you ever seen the image (symbol) of the Christian fish? Many call this a Jesus fish, but very few know how to apply this personally to their own lives. Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't go there"

Well, we all 'went there' but God made that place so we could be redeemed. I did not know to say those words until my own salvation and two places in the bible. In the Old Testament, a Prophet named Habakkuk asked, "God, why do You make men like fish of the sea; like creatures who wander as if they have no ruler over them?" The nature of a man who wanders as if he has no ruler over him is a stranger to God's temple. That man lives in a place called death. These are the lost whom Jesus spoke of when He said, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men" (because we 'went there'). Very few know the meaning of the Christian fish.


.............."Fishers of men"
___________________________________

"Men like (Christian symbol) of the sea"


The witness of Christ's work in our lives falls short of understanding when the symbol of the Christian fish is not placed personally in the witness of the things Jesus did for each of us. In the Book of Jeremiah 16;16 concerning those who are lost in sin, our Lord said, "I will teach how to 'fish them out" Jesus did exactly that when He said, "Follow Me and I will make you fishers of men."

The symbol of the Christian fish is more than two lines drawn in the sand; It is more the the Greek spelling of Christ's name. It is personally about each and every one of us, and the things Jesus did in our lives. There are many facets that teach how Jesus redeems us. The teaching of the fish was given in the very beginning of His ministry for a specific reason. No man follows Jesus except he is removed from the place of sin by the Word of God (the hook). The teaching of the fish reveals sin was not simply a moment in our lives; it was a way of life altogether until we are raised up from that place of sin. More creation language;
It is well known that a man who does not know the Lord, is not food for God's people. But the fish that is caught and prepared by fire, becomes food for many. This is Creation Language. The teaching of the coin in the fish's mouth is about each of us pertaining to the fulfillment of an Old Testament law.