Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

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Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

Roe v. Wade has been overturned today.
This subtopic specifically does not invite debate on the prohibition of abortion.

The question for debate is whether this sweeping decision allowing the States to outlaw abortion will lead to civil unrest and disrespect for the Court. My guess is, it will do both and will lead to women traveling from their homes in the South and much of the heartland of the United States to States that protect the 'right' for 50 years.

The 'abortion pill' will be banned in many States and the 'pro-choice' advocates will try to get the pill into those States where it will be a felony to possess it. I can envision armed militias at borders and around airports.
When the 18th Amendment prohibited Alcohol in 1919 it produced a new, illegal industry and related violence that lead to the passage of the 21st Amendment in 1933, repealing that Amendment.
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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #31

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:39 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #29]

You think that's bad? try the Muslim version:
Image
Heathrow Airport: Muslim minicab drivers forced to pray in bus stop.

Really, the fuss we often see from some Muslims makes these US Christian examples laughable.
I don't know the context of that or what your point is. Could you elaborate?
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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #32

Post by historia »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am
Yes but it must be acknowledged that these are all extra Biblical sources and express opinions rather than inspired Christian doctrine . . . i.e. this literature has no authority.
No, the Church Fathers absolutely have authority within Christianity.

Some Protestants may not accept their authority, but that is the exception, not the rule.
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am
Jesus nor Paul has anything whatsoever to say about this, the Bible is to all intents and purposes silent about abortion.
Yeah, Christianity consists of more than just what Paul and Jesus said.
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am
The entire abortion fixation is skewed, no concern is expressed for babies and children in foreign countries dying from Western bombs and unexploded cluster munitions or contamination from agent orange (which causes birth defects to this day). Nor is concern expressed about the deaths of children from sanctions (it is estimated that over a million children died in Iraq as a direct result of Western sanctions limiting medicines in Iraq after the war there).

So I find most of these vocal anti abortionists to be hypocrites not Christians, they are only concerned about a segment of victims it seems to me, American unborn are worthy of defense but foreign already born earn nothing but our contempt.
Your whataboutism is duly noted.

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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #33

Post by Inquirer »

historia wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:30 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am
Yes but it must be acknowledged that these are all extra Biblical sources and express opinions rather than inspired Christian doctrine . . . i.e. this literature has no authority.
No, the Church Fathers absolutely have authority within Christianity.
One must be very careful here, recall what the epistle of Clement says:
Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.
Clement is as I'm sure you'll agree, a Church father, in fact the epistle is one of the earliest examples.
historia wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:30 pm Some Protestants may not accept their authority, but that is the exception, not the rule.
So you accept the Phoenix tale as authoritative? Please explain.
historia wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:30 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am
Jesus nor Paul has anything whatsoever to say about this, the Bible is to all intents and purposes silent about abortion.
Yeah, Christianity consists of more than just what Paul and Jesus said.
But how do we decide what is authoritative and what is not, when reading this literature? Do you regard every word of Clement's epistle as authoritative, trustworthy?
historia wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:30 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 am
The entire abortion fixation is skewed, no concern is expressed for babies and children in foreign countries dying from Western bombs and unexploded cluster munitions or contamination from agent orange (which causes birth defects to this day). Nor is concern expressed about the deaths of children from sanctions (it is estimated that over a million children died in Iraq as a direct result of Western sanctions limiting medicines in Iraq after the war there).

So I find most of these vocal anti abortionists to be hypocrites not Christians, they are only concerned about a segment of victims it seems to me, American unborn are worthy of defense but foreign already born earn nothing but our contempt.
Your whataboutism is duly noted.
If one cannot call out apparent hypocrisy to one's fellow Christians without incurring an accusation of "whataboutism" then we are in trouble!
Last edited by Inquirer on Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #34

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:52 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:39 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #29]

You think that's bad? try the Muslim version:
Image
Heathrow Airport: Muslim minicab drivers forced to pray in bus stop.

Really, the fuss we often see from some Muslims makes these US Christian examples laughable.
I don't know the context of that or what your point is. Could you elaborate?
There's a link in the post to the associated story.

My point is that these prayer examples we hear people complain about in the US are laughable compared to what you could be subjected to. Islam is an alien ideology, very little in common with our established liberal Christian democracies.

Would you rather hear Church bells in the distance or an Islamic call to prayer in the town where you live?



Or what about Sharia law, this is used today in several parts of the West where the Muslim community is well established and has subjugated women, denying them the protection of law in their adopted country.



Not to mention being threatened with death for drawing a cartoon or burning a book or having one's hand cut off for petty theft - all of this and more is inherent in Islamic ideology.

So all things considered that guy praying at the football game is a zero, I mean who cares?

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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #35

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:19 am My point is that these prayer examples we hear people complain about in the US are laughable compared to what you could be subjected to. Islam is an alien ideology, very little in common with our established liberal Christian democracies.
Huh? An airport is trying to provide Muslims with a place to pray, Muslims aren't happy with how that's going, and that's worse than a government official using his position to promote Christianity? I don't see how that relates at all to the Kennedy case.
Would you rather hear Church bells in the distance or an Islamic call to prayer in the town where you live?
For me, neither would be preferable.
Or what about Sharia law, this is used today in several parts of the West where the Muslim community is well established and has subjugated women, denying them the protection of law in their adopted country.
What about it? Jews have the same thing with their Bet Dins, so again I don't see your point.
Not to mention being threatened with death for drawing a cartoon or burning a book or having one's hand cut off for petty theft - all of this and more is inherent in Islamic ideology.
Throughout US history, Christians have killed all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. Just recently we had one go on a shooting rampage and kill a bunch of Asian women because he saw them as too sexually tempting.

Is your point here simply "but Muslims are worse"?
So all things considered that guy praying at the football game is a zero, I mean who cares?
The students who felt pressured to participate, the parents of those students, the taxpayers who were supposed to be paying him to coach but instead paid him to preach, school officials, people who feel strongly about the separation of church and state....
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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #36

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:25 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:19 am My point is that these prayer examples we hear people complain about in the US are laughable compared to what you could be subjected to. Islam is an alien ideology, very little in common with our established liberal Christian democracies.
Huh? An airport is trying to provide Muslims with a place to pray, Muslims aren't happy with how that's going, and that's worse than a government official using his position to promote Christianity? I don't see how that relates at all to the Kennedy case.
Would you rather hear Church bells in the distance or an Islamic call to prayer in the town where you live?
For me, neither would be preferable.
Or what about Sharia law, this is used today in several parts of the West where the Muslim community is well established and has subjugated women, denying them the protection of law in their adopted country.
What about it? Jews have the same thing with their Bet Dins, so again I don't see your point.
Not to mention being threatened with death for drawing a cartoon or burning a book or having one's hand cut off for petty theft - all of this and more is inherent in Islamic ideology.
Throughout US history, Christians have killed all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. Just recently we had one go on a shooting rampage and kill a bunch of Asian women because he saw them as too sexually tempting.

Is your point here simply "but Muslims are worse"?
So all things considered that guy praying at the football game is a zero, I mean who cares?
The students who felt pressured to participate, the parents of those students, the taxpayers who were supposed to be paying him to coach but instead paid him to preach, school officials, people who feel strongly about the separation of church and state....
I think its a huge fuss about nothing basically. Islamic ideology is an example of a truly worrying and insidious threat to our culture, Christians praying is not, the country was founded by Christians and churches, bells, bibles and so on are common trappings as they have been in Europe for many centuries, well before the US existed.

I'd be disappointed if the guy prayed like that and I was there or my child was there, public displays of piety are actually discouraged by the NT so why he feels to the need to do that I don't know but put it in perspective, no harm was done. If he had worn a dress because he was transgender would that be attacked with the same gusto as praying I wonder or would be reminded of how important it is to be tolerant of differences like this?

I think the US radical "anti Christian" movement is over the top, single issue fanatics fussing over something minor.

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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #37

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:57 pm I think its a huge fuss about nothing basically. Islamic ideology is an example of a truly worrying and insidious threat to our culture, Christians praying is not, the country was founded by Christians and churches, bells, bibles and so on are common trappings as they have been in Europe for many centuries, well before the US existed.

I'd be disappointed if the guy prayed like that and I was there or my child was there, public displays of piety are actually discouraged by the NT so why he feels to the need to do that I don't know but put it in perspective, no harm was done. If he had worn a dress because he was transgender would that be attacked with the same gusto as praying I wonder or would be reminded of how important it is to be tolerant of differences like this?

I think the US radical "anti Christian" movement is over the top, single issue fanatics fussing over something minor.
Oh, so you were hoping to turn this thread into a screed against Muslims and LGBTQs.

If you want to do that, start another thread.
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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #38

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:15 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:57 pm I think its a huge fuss about nothing basically. Islamic ideology is an example of a truly worrying and insidious threat to our culture, Christians praying is not, the country was founded by Christians and churches, bells, bibles and so on are common trappings as they have been in Europe for many centuries, well before the US existed.

I'd be disappointed if the guy prayed like that and I was there or my child was there, public displays of piety are actually discouraged by the NT so why he feels to the need to do that I don't know but put it in perspective, no harm was done. If he had worn a dress because he was transgender would that be attacked with the same gusto as praying I wonder or would be reminded of how important it is to be tolerant of differences like this?

I think the US radical "anti Christian" movement is over the top, single issue fanatics fussing over something minor.
Oh, so you were hoping to turn this thread into a screed against Muslims and LGBTQs.

If you want to do that, start another thread.
No Jose, the thread was initially focusing on the topic of the title before several of you started to discuss the Kennedy case and people expressing their religion and so on.

I simply brought a much more insidious example of this into the discussion to put the silliness about the coach praying into perspective.

So perhaps you were hoping to turn this thread into a screed against Christians...

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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #39

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #23]
The opposition to Roe v Wade is what I term "single issue fanaticism". The obsession with some single issue dominates one's political thinking and decision making. Trump (by pretending to care about these obscure issues) is able to lead the sheep by their noses, they will do his bidding, defend his name, look away as he lies and insults his way to the bank so long as he supports their pet fanaticism be it abortion, guns, immigration, racism, nationalism, white supremacy...
Well, then I would say you don’t get it and also make quite a lot of false assumptions in your response.

First, you are correct that many pro lifers view abortion as the pre-eminent issue, because it logically and obviously is. If you first don’t have the right to life, then no other rights matter. We can’t talk about right to privacy or right to own a gun or right to health care, until we at the very least are first guaranteed the right to life.

Also, perhaps Trump is pretending to care about abortion. I actually wondered that at first too. But it was a gamble I was willing to take. Gee, do I vote for Hilary Clinton who would have become the most extreme pro abortion President we had ever had or Trump who was saying he was pro life and planned to appoint pro life Supreme Court justices and do away with government money funding abortion providers. If you want to have a discussion about politicians telling their people what they want them to hear, both Bill Clinton and Obama both previously made the statements that marriage was between a man and a woman. Of course, as soon as pressured from their party, they began to sing another tune. So, I am very familiar with the wishy washiness of politicians.

You also make ridiculous accusations that pro lifers are gun nuts, anti immigration, racist, nationalists, or white supremacists. I would never own a gun and I am A-ok with stricter gun laws. I also have no problem with immigration, and the other things mentioned aren’t worthy of reply.

I oppose abortion because we are talking about a human being. Human beings should have the right to life simply for being human beings. Abortion is believing one human being can decide if another innocent human being can be killed simply because that person finds him/her inconvenient. GROSS!

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Re: Roe v. Wade Overturned June 24, 2022

Post #40

Post by Inquirer »

RightReason wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #23]
The opposition to Roe v Wade is what I term "single issue fanaticism". The obsession with some single issue dominates one's political thinking and decision making. Trump (by pretending to care about these obscure issues) is able to lead the sheep by their noses, they will do his bidding, defend his name, look away as he lies and insults his way to the bank so long as he supports their pet fanaticism be it abortion, guns, immigration, racism, nationalism, white supremacy...
Well, then I would say you don’t get it and also make quite a lot of false assumptions in your response.

First, you are correct that many pro lifers view abortion as the pre-eminent issue, because it logically and obviously is. If you first don’t have the right to life, then no other rights matter.
Societies can enact rights irrespective of whether abortion is sanctioned or not.
RightReason wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 pm We can’t talk about right to privacy or right to own a gun or right to health care, until we at the very least are first guaranteed the right to life.
All rights are arbitrary.
RightReason wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 pm Also, perhaps Trump is pretending to care about abortion. I actually wondered that at first too. But it was a gamble I was willing to take. Gee, do I vote for Hilary Clinton who would have become the most extreme pro abortion President we had ever had or Trump who was saying he was pro life and planned to appoint pro life Supreme Court justices and do away with government money funding abortion providers. If you want to have a discussion about politicians telling their people what they want them to hear, both Bill Clinton and Obama both previously made the statements that marriage was between a man and a woman. Of course, as soon as pressured from their party, they began to sing another tune. So, I am very familiar with the wishy washiness of politicians.
Indeed.
RightReason wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 pm You also make ridiculous accusations that pro lifers are gun nuts, anti immigration, racist, nationalists, or white supremacists. I would never own a gun and I am A-ok with stricter gun laws. I also have no problem with immigration, and the other things mentioned aren’t worthy of reply.
Well perhaps I did over-generalize, but most of those I've meet or seen or read who support Trump (some even still claiming he won the election) do fit that mold.
RightReason wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 pm I oppose abortion because we are talking about a human being. Human beings should have the right to life simply for being human beings. Abortion is believing one human being can decide if another innocent human being can be killed simply because that person finds him/her inconvenient. GROSS!
So would you be pro abortion under any circumstances?

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