Do y'all believe it is acceptable for a woman to have an abortion?
IMO:
when a woman says "I should decide what to do with my body" I'm like "well... first of all that baby isn't part of your body, it's someone else's body, so yeah..."
what're yalls views on this topic? post below!
Good day and God Bless
Abortion
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Re: Abortion
Post #51I don't know.Bluethread wrote:Doesn't the March of Dimes do research into stopping miscarriage?
Now what do you think about the 50% abortion rate? This figure kinda puts abortions in perspective a little bit don't you think?
Are you disturbed at all that your god (assuming he is our creator) is the biggest abortionist on the planet, by far? Or does he get a free pass? If so, I can see how judging others decision to not keep an unwanted fetus might make a person feel better while believing in such a god.
I am not arguing that the unborn don't matter.Then are you arguing that the unborn don't matter at all, or is it just that the unborn only matter if they are wanted by the mother?
In fact, I know some parents that want nothing more than to have their own baby at some point, but they cannot so far get past the 50% abortion rate of fetuses that we currently have.
I don't believe so, but feel free to convince me that it is if you have an argument.So, is it losing the forest for the trees, if I protest child abuse, because of all the "wanted" children who die of childhood illnesses?
What I said, and what I find to be missing the forest for the trees is to focus on unwanted fetuses while seemingly ignoring all the wanted fetuses that get aborted.
Where are all the people picketing their god for creating biological reproduction so poorly? Why are the gods not being judged for aborting so many fetuses by the religious, who can be so loud at times while judging those that abort a fetus that is not wanted?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Post #52
Why did they come out with that statistic, if they weren't going to do anything about it. The perspective depends on what makes up that rate. Much of that is probably do to disease and disability on the part of the mother and/or child. One can make the same argument regarding any stage in life. In fact, the longer one lives the more likely it is that one will live longer. Resistance to disease and disability is lower at the beginning and end of life.Clownboat wrote:I don't know.Bluethread wrote:Doesn't the March of Dimes do research into stopping miscarriage?
Now what do you think about the 50% abortion rate? This figure kinda puts abortions in perspective a little bit don't you think?
That is basically the question of why people die. It is disturbing that people die, but that doesn't make those deaths murder. Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse. A deity is a different life form and so is not subject to the same laws that apply to men. Also, the justification is that those that die in the womb would not survive outside the womb. That last is a justification that nearly everyone accepts. However, the taking of a life simply because the parent does not want to provide for it is very different thing.Are you disturbed at all that your god (assuming he is our creator) is the biggest abortionist on the planet, by far? Or does he get a free pass? If so, I can see how judging others decision to not keep an unwanted fetus might make a person feel better while believing in such a god.
So, you are saying that the unborn that are desired by the parent matter. How are they different from those that are not desired by the parent, apart from the parent's desire?I am not arguing that the unborn don't matter.Then are you arguing that the unborn don't matter at all, or is it just that the unborn only matter if they are wanted by the mother?
In fact, I know some parents that want nothing more than to have their own baby at some point, but they cannot so far get past the 50% abortion rate of fetuses that we currently have.
Well, the difference is the premeditated killing of humans by humans as compared to the unintentional death of humans due to disease and disability, in spite of human attempts to avoid those unintentional deaths. That is my point, is infanticide acceptable because of the high rate of infant death from disease and disability?I don't believe so, but feel free to convince me that it is if you have an argument.So, is it losing the forest for the trees, if I protest child abuse, because of all the "wanted" children who die of childhood illnesses?
What I said, and what I find to be missing the forest for the trees is to focus on unwanted fetuses while seemingly ignoring all the wanted fetuses that get aborted.
Many who lose children do to disease and disability do engage in such protests. However, the fact that a deity is a different life form, makes such protests of no more effect than the protests of sheep when a shepherd culls the herd.Where are all the people picketing their god for creating biological reproduction so poorly? Why are the gods not being judged for aborting so many fetuses by the religious, who can be so loud at times while judging those that abort a fetus that is not wanted?
So, here is a question for you. If a protester hits a pregant women who is going to get an abortion and as a result she has a miscarriage, should the protester be required to compensate her for the lose of a child?
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Post #53
I don't work for them. Unrealistic for you to expect me to know such things. Research is needed, and if you want to know, you should be the one to do it.Bluethread wrote:Why did they come out with that statistic, if they weren't going to do anything about it.
Most are due to genetic problems. Now did the parents set up the system for such poor reproduction, or did a god? Your just blaming the victim Bluethread.The perspective depends on what makes up that rate. Much of that is probably do to disease and disability on the part of the mother and/or child.
No comment at this time as I cannot figure out what this has to do with the fact that 50% of fetuses abort naturally.One can make the same argument regarding any stage in life. In fact, the longer one lives the more likely it is that one will live longer. Resistance to disease and disability is lower at the beginning and end of life.
Are you disturbed at all that your god (assuming he is our creator) is the biggest abortionist on the planet, by far? Or does he get a free pass? If so, I can see how judging others decision to not keep an unwanted fetus might make a person feel better while believing in such a god.
Not even close. We don't judge people for dying. What is see are people judging others for not keeping an unwanted fetus. They justify such judging because of their religious beliefs. However, according to their own religious beliefs, their god is the biggest cause of abortions by far. The process your god came up with aborts half of fertilized fetuses. Most of these fetuses are wanted, unlike the removal of an unwanted fetus.That is basically the question of why people die.
Agreed. Nothing to say.It is disturbing that people die, but that doesn't make those deaths murder. Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse.
Is this your attempt to just sweep all these abortions your god is responsible for under the rug? The lump under the rug is still plane to see I'm afraid.A deity is a different life form and so is not subject to the same laws that apply to men.
Why do the gods get a free pass here for creating a process that is so abysmal? Apparently you are in fact OK with 50% of abortions when women choose to abort because half of them would not survive outside the womb anyway. Your half way to being pro choice!Also, the justification is that those that die in the womb would not survive outside the womb.
However, the taking of a life simply because the parent does not want to provide for it is very different thing.
And yet you give a free pass to your god and its process that robs countless wanted fetuses from countless parents trying desperately to conceive. You're literally judging a women for removing a fetus she does not want conceived, yet ignoring all the wanted fetuses that your god aborts because of its failed form of reproduction.
You must see this right?
I am not arguing that the unborn don't matter.
In fact, I know some parents that want nothing more than to have their own baby at some point, but they cannot so far get past the 50% abortion rate of fetuses that we currently have.
Yes, desired fetuses matter greatly to the parents. Surely you agree?So, you are saying that the unborn that are desired by the parent matter.
For some reason though, your focus is on the unwanted fetuses. This is where I feel you are missing the forest for the trees.
Do YOU want these unwanted fetuses? If you would be OK with passing a law to not allow abortions, would you desire these unwanted fetuses yourself?
They are different because they are desired. A desired fetus that makes it to birth will be better cared for than an unwanted fetus that just so happens to survive the 50% abortion rate set up by the gods.How are they different from those that are not desired by the parent, apart from the parent's desire?
You answered the question yourself and keep in mind that 50% of unwanted fetuses will abort naturally thanks to the gods.
So the gods abort 50% of unwanted fetuses (as well as wanted), but when a women does it, it is wrong? Do I have this right?
It is not fair to call a fetus a human when it only has a 50% chance of making it to the human 'person' state.Well, the difference is the premeditated killing of humans by humans as compared to the unintentional death of humans due to disease and disability, in spite of human attempts to avoid those unintentional deaths.
You're also giving your god concept a free pass by blaming the 50% abortion rate it created on disease and disabilities. So generous you are when it comes to the gods.
I don't think anyone should kill infants, nor grade schoolers, nor kids in elementary school, etc, but lets focus on what actually gets aborted shall we? No one, including your god aborts infants, so we can leave that out I would think.That is my point, is infanticide acceptable because of the high rate of infant death from disease and disability?
I disagree. As you surely agree with me on, all the gods are false (best we can tell), except for one exception in your case. Therefore to point out the poor behavior of the gods may help some to realize that their preferred god is no different then the other gods that are already known to be false.Many who lose children do to disease and disability do engage in such protests. However, the fact that a deity is a different life form, makes such protests of no more effect than the protests of sheep when a shepherd culls the herd.
Of course. I am against people assaulting other people. Not to mention the stress of aborting due to being beaten compared to the medical process of aborting a fetus.So, here is a question for you. If a protester hits a pregant women who is going to get an abortion and as a result she has a miscarriage, should the protester be required to compensate her for the lose of a child?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Post #54
Are you disturbed at all that your god (assuming he is our creator) is the biggest abortionist on the planet, by far? Or does he get a free pass? If so, I can see how judging others decision to not keep an unwanted fetus might make a person feel better while believing in such a god.
Not even close. We don't judge people for dying. What is see are people judging others for not keeping an unwanted fetus. They justify such judging because of their religious beliefs. However, according to their own religious beliefs, their god is the biggest cause of abortions by far. The process your god came up with aborts half of fertilized fetuses. Most of these fetuses are wanted, unlike the removal of an unwanted fetus. [/quote]That is basically the question of why people die.
We don't judge people for being aborted either. However, we do judge people for killing. Is it hypocritical for theists to judge people for killing other people, just because a deity sets up an ecosystem in which all people die? What requires a deity to allow anyone to live?
No, I am just pointing out that the activities of one life form do not excuse the activities of another life form. Humans kill livestock with impunity, but they do not permit the livestock to kill each other.Agreed. Nothing to say.It is disturbing that people die, but that doesn't make those deaths murder. Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse.
Is this your attempt to just sweep all these abortions your god is responsible for under the rug? The lump under the rug is still plane to see I'm afraid.A deity is a different life form and so is not subject to the same laws that apply to men.
Because deities are not human. Why is this so hard to understand? No, I am not in favor of 50% of abortions. I am opposed to those abortions performed by humans for which there is no medical justification. This is not an uncommon view. It is just not discussed much, because the argument tends to be for abortion on demand, not abortion for medical reasons.Why do the gods get a free pass here for creating a process that is so abysmal? Apparently you are in fact OK with 50% of abortions when women choose to abort because half of them would not survive outside the womb anyway. Your half way to being pro choice!Also, the justification is that those that die in the womb would not survive outside the womb.
How does one remove a fetus one does not want to conceive. It isn't conceived yet. What am doing is asking that that same standards be applied to all human life after conception. If a deity makes it so that a human, after being conceived, dies, what is one to do? If a human makes it so another human does, after being conceived, dies, what is one to do then? Are these really the same thing?However, the taking of a life simply because the parent does not want to provide for it is very different thing.
And yet you give a free pass to your god and its process that robs countless wanted fetuses from countless parents trying desperately to conceive. You're literally judging a women for removing a fetus she does not want conceived, yet ignoring all the wanted fetuses that your god aborts because of its failed form of reproduction.
You must see this right?
You are breaking up my statements so that you can throw in different argument to confuse the issue. The point is that women, or men for that matter, are not deities. Also, it is not necessary for there to be deities for the argument to apply. At it's root your argument is that since 50% of fertilized eggs do not come to term naturally, it is acceptable for humans to destroy the unborn simply because they do nnot want to be responsible for having conceived them.I am not arguing that the unborn don't matter.
In fact, I know some parents that want nothing more than to have their own baby at some point, but they cannot so far get past the 50% abortion rate of fetuses that we currently have.Yes, desired fetuses matter greatly to the parents. Surely you agree?So, you are saying that the unborn that are desired by the parent matter.
For some reason though, your focus is on the unwanted fetuses. This is where I feel you are missing the forest for the trees.
Do YOU want these unwanted fetuses? If you would be OK with passing a law to not allow abortions, would you desire these unwanted fetuses yourself?
They are different because they are desired. A desired fetus that makes it to birth will be better cared for than an unwanted fetus that just so happens to survive the 50% abortion rate set up by the gods.How are they different from those that are not desired by the parent, apart from the parent's desire?
You answered the question yourself and keep in mind that 50% of unwanted fetuses will abort naturally thanks to the gods.
So the gods abort 50% of unwanted fetuses (as well as wanted), but when a women does it, it is wrong? Do I have this right?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
It is not fair to call a fetus a human when it only has a 50% chance of making it to the human 'person' state.Well, the difference is the premeditated killing of humans by humans as compared to the unintentional death of humans due to disease and disability, in spite of human attempts to avoid those unintentional deaths.
You're also giving your god concept a free pass by blaming the 50% abortion rate it created on disease and disabilities. So generous you are when it comes to the gods.
I don't think anyone should kill infants, nor grade schoolers, nor kids in elementary school, etc, but lets focus on what actually gets aborted shall we? No one, including your god aborts infants, so we can leave that out I would think.That is my point, is infanticide acceptable because of the high rate of infant death from disease and disability?
I disagree. As you surely agree with me on, all the gods are false (best we can tell), except for one exception in your case. Therefore to point out the poor behavior of the gods may help some to realize that their preferred god is no different then the other gods that are already known to be false.Many who lose children do to disease and disability do engage in such protests. However, the fact that a deity is a different life form, makes such protests of no more effect than the protests of sheep when a shepherd culls the herd.
Of course. I am against people assaulting other people. Not to mention the stress of aborting due to being beaten compared to the medical process of aborting a fetus.[/quote]So, here is a question for you. If a protester hits a pregant women who is going to get an abortion and as a result she has a miscarriage, should the protester be required to compensate her for the lose of a child?
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Post #55
[Replying to post 53 by Clownboat]
How does one remove a fetus one does not want to conceive. It isn't conceived yet. If one does not want a fetus, one should make sure one does not conceive. All I am asking that the same standards be applied to all human life after conception. If a deity makes it so that a human dies, what is one to do? If a human makes it so another human does dies, what is one to do then? Are these really the same thing?
We don't judge people for being aborted either. However, we do judge people for killing. Is it hypocritical for theists to judge people for killing other people, just because a deity sets up an ecosystem in which all people die? What requires a deity to allow anyone to live?Are you disturbed at all that your god (assuming he is our creator) is the biggest abortionist on the planet, by far? Or does he get a free pass? If so, I can see how judging others decision to not keep an unwanted fetus might make a person feel better while believing in such a god.Not even close. We don't judge people for dying. What is see are people judging others for not keeping an unwanted fetus. They justify such judging because of their religious beliefs. However, according to their own religious beliefs, their god is the biggest cause of abortions by far. The process your god came up with aborts half of fertilized fetuses. Most of these fetuses are wanted, unlike the removal of an unwanted fetus.That is basically the question of why people die.
No, the two statements go together. I am just pointing out that the activities of one life form do not excuse the activities of another life form. Humans kill livestock with impunity, but they do not permit the livestock to kill each other.Agreed. Nothing to say.It is disturbing that people die, but that doesn't make those deaths murder. Murder is the killing of another person without justification or valid excuse.
Is this your attempt to just sweep all these abortions your god is responsible for under the rug? The lump under the rug is still plane to see I'm afraid.A deity is a different life form and so is not subject to the same laws that apply to men.
Because deities are not human. Why is this so hard to understand? No, I am not in favor of 50% of abortions. I am opposed to those abortions performed by humans for which there is no medical justification. This is not an uncommon view. It is just not discussed much, because the argument tends to be for abortion on demand, not abortion for medical reasons.Why do the gods get a free pass here for creating a process that is so abysmal? Apparently you are in fact OK with 50% of abortions when women choose to abort because half of them would not survive outside the womb anyway. Your half way to being pro choice!Also, the justification is that those that die in the womb would not survive outside the womb.
However, the taking of a life simply because the parent does not want to provide for it is very different thing.
And yet you give a free pass to your god and its process that robs countless wanted fetuses from countless parents trying desperately to conceive. You're literally judging a women for removing a fetus she does not want conceived, yet ignoring all the wanted fetuses that your god aborts because of its failed form of reproduction.
You must see this right?
How does one remove a fetus one does not want to conceive. It isn't conceived yet. If one does not want a fetus, one should make sure one does not conceive. All I am asking that the same standards be applied to all human life after conception. If a deity makes it so that a human dies, what is one to do? If a human makes it so another human does dies, what is one to do then? Are these really the same thing?
You are breaking up my statements so that you can throw in different arguments to confuse the issue. Please, keep my statements in context. The point is that women, or men for that matter, are not deities. Also, it is not necessary for there to be deities for the argument to apply. At it's root your argument is that since 50% of fertilized eggs do not come to term naturally, it is acceptable for humans to destroy the unborn simply because they do not want to be responsible for having conceived them. Whether theist or atheist, wanted or unwanted, fratricide for convenience is generally unacceptable.Yes, desired fetuses matter greatly to the parents. Surely you agree?So, you are saying that the unborn that are desired by the parent matter.
For some reason though, your focus is on the unwanted fetuses. This is where I feel you are missing the forest for the trees.
Do YOU want these unwanted fetuses? If you would be OK with passing a law to not allow abortions, would you desire these unwanted fetuses yourself?
They are different because they are desired. A desired fetus that makes it to birth will be better cared for than an unwanted fetus that just so happens to survive the 50% abortion rate set up by the gods.How are they different from those that are not desired by the parent, apart from the parent's desire?
You answered the question yourself and keep in mind that 50% of unwanted fetuses will abort naturally thanks to the gods.
So the gods abort 50% of unwanted fetuses (as well as wanted), but when a women does it, it is wrong? Do I have this right?
What do you mean by "the human 'person' state"? How does one determine what a 'person' is? If we deem some thing to not be a 'person', then are we permitted to kill it for our convenience?It is not fair to call a fetus a human when it only has a 50% chance of making it to the human 'person' state.Well, the difference is the premeditated killing of humans by humans as compared to the unintentional death of humans due to disease and disability, in spite of human attempts to avoid those unintentional deaths.
You're also giving your god concept a free pass by blaming the 50% abortion rate it created on disease and disabilities. So generous you are when it comes to the gods.
Wait, you wish to consider every death prior to birth as the same, yet similar deaths after birth are somehow different. How so?I don't think anyone should kill infants, nor grade schoolers, nor kids in elementary school, etc, but lets focus on what actually gets aborted shall we? No one, including your god aborts infants, so we can leave that out I would think.That is my point, is infanticide acceptable because of the high rate of infant death from disease and disability?
I made no such qualification. Many may protest and wail as part of the grieving process, but that does not obligate a deity, any deity, any more that the bleating of a ewe obligates the shepherd.I disagree. As you surely agree with me on, all the gods are false (best we can tell), except for one exception in your case. Therefore to point out the poor behavior of the gods may help some to realize that their preferred god is no different then the other gods that are already known to be false.Many who lose children do to disease and disability do engage in such protests. However, the fact that a deity is a different life form, makes such protests of no more effect than the protests of sheep when a shepherd culls the herd.
I did not ask if she should be compensated for personal injury, pain and suffering. I asked if she should be compensated for the lose of a child.Of course. I am against people assaulting other people. Not to mention the stress of aborting due to being beaten compared to the medical process of aborting a fetus.So, here is a question for you. If a protester hits a pregant women who is going to get an abortion and as a result she has a miscarriage, should the protester be required to compensate her for the lose of a child?
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Post #56
What does it even mean to abort a person?We don't judge people for being aborted either.
What is going on? Are we no longer talking about abortion?However, we do judge people for killing.
This is phrased odd, but I believe 'no' is my answer.Is it hypocritical for theists to judge people for killing other people, just because a deity sets up an ecosystem in which all people die?
What I find hypocritical is religious people railing against a women that decided to not keep an unwanted fetus that had a 50% chance to abort naturally, and then go on to seemingly ignore how their god concept created a procedure that aborts 1/2 of fetuses. Most of which are wanted.
No idea. Are there any real gods in the first place? Perhaps there are god laws enforced by the god police?What requires a deity to allow anyone to live?
It doesn't seem fair to ask me unknowable questions about unknown entities that may not even exist.
Why do the gods get a free pass here for creating a process that is so abysmal? Apparently you are in fact OK with 50% of abortions when women choose to abort because half of them would not survive outside the womb anyway. Your half way to being pro choice!
Because deities are not human.
Apparently, if they exist, they are terrible leaders too. As you know, a good leader leads by example.
It's not, however, if they exist, they lead by a terrible example when it comes to aborting fetuses.Why is this so hard to understand?
Common ground! This is good.No, I am not in favor of 50% of abortions. I am opposed to those abortions performed by humans for which there is no medical justification. This is not an uncommon view. It is just not discussed much, because the argument tends to be for abortion on demand, not abortion for medical reasons.
I'm also not in favor of abortions. What my being in favor of or not in favor of has to do with whether a women is allowed to choose to carry a fetus to term or not is something I don't understand.
What if a person is not in favor of religions? Should they seek to legislate your ability to choose to be religious or not?
In the scenario you present, there is no fetus available for removal, so I don't understand your question.How does one remove a fetus one does not want to conceive.
Agreed, but you and I both know that this is not always what happens on our planet. So our dictating what one should do is irrelevant don't you think? Who are you and I anyways to dictate to others what they can or can't do with their bodies?If one does not want a fetus, one should make sure one does not conceive.
If there are deities guiding this world, then we should probably heed their examples wouldn't you think?All I am asking that the same standards be applied to all human life after conception. If a deity makes it so that a human dies, what is one to do? If a human makes it so another human does dies, what is one to do then? Are these really the same thing?
The fact that 50% of fetuses abort naturally evidences the lack of there being gods though don't you think? At least gods that could be argued about caring about us or wanting to have a relationship with us.
You are mistaken about my argument. First thing you must understand is that I am not a fan of abortions. I have a hard time finding them as acceptable. However, what I find less acceptable is seeing humans dictate to other humans what they can or can't do with their own bodies. When it comes to abortion, I see the religious doing this the loudest while noting that their god concept is responsible for way, way more abortions and we don't hear a peep from them about that.You are breaking up my statements so that you can throw in different arguments to confuse the issue. Please, keep my statements in context. The point is that women, or men for that matter, are not deities. Also, it is not necessary for there to be deities for the argument to apply. At it's root your argument is that since 50% of fertilized eggs do not come to term naturally, it is acceptable for humans to destroy the unborn simply because they do not want to be responsible for having conceived them.
Thank you for asking for clarification. What I mean in this case is for 'person state' to mean having been born.What do you mean by "the human 'person' state"?
I don't know, but I clarified what I meant by it.How does one determine what a 'person' is?
No, and no one here has made such an argument.If we deem some thing to not be a 'person', then are we permitted to kill it for our convenience?
Your doing it again! You're ignoring, to use your words, all the deaths your god concept is responsible for.Wait, you wish to consider every death prior to birth as the same, yet similar deaths after birth are somehow different. How so?
To answer your question. Yes, I consider a fetus to have less value than a 1 year old for example. You do as well in fact.
Sheep are not intelligent like humans are. Therefore a shepherd would have no reason to lead by example. Gods, if they exist and rule over intelligent humans would lead by example if they were also intelligent. My opinion of course as there could exist nefarious gods that see us more as play things than things to have a relationship with.I made no such qualification. Many may protest and wail as part of the grieving process, but that does not obligate a deity, any deity, any more that the bleating of a ewe obligates the shepherd.
Depends, is the women in question asking for compensation for the loss of the fetus? If so, you would probably need to prove that she was not going to have a change of heart about getting an abortion before giving the person who assaulted her a free pass. Either way though, the assault of course would need to be addressed.I did not ask if she should be compensated for personal injury, pain and suffering. I asked if she should be compensated for the lose of a child.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Post #57
The termination of a pregnancy resulting in the death of a human being.Clownboat wrote:What does it even mean to abort a person?We don't judge people for being aborted either.
What is going on? Are we no longer talking about abortion?However, we do judge people for killing.
It is my understanding that abortion involves the killing of a human being.
Ok, argue that with those people. I am not ignoring that, I am dealing with it directly. Does the fact that a deity has established a system that results in 50% of human beings dying justify the killing of human beings by human beings?This is phrased odd, but I believe 'no' is my answer.Is it hypocritical for theists to judge people for killing other people, just because a deity sets up an ecosystem in which all people die?
What I find hypocritical is religious people railing against a women that decided to not keep an unwanted fetus that had a 50% chance to abort naturally, and then go on to seemingly ignore how their god concept created a procedure that aborts 1/2 of fetuses. Most of which are wanted.
Your the one who is asking me to ignore that actions of humans based on the presumed actions of deities. Are you dropping that argument now?No idea. Are there any real gods in the first place? Perhaps there are god laws enforced by the god police?What requires a deity to allow anyone to live?
It doesn't seem fair to ask me unknowable questions about unknown entities that may not even exist.
Hold it. You just refused to answer the previous question, because you say that deities do not exist. Which is it, are we to presume that deities exist or that they do not exist? Is this your argument that requires deities to allow people to live, that they must be "good leaders"?Why do the gods get a free pass here for creating a process that is so abysmal? Apparently you are in fact OK with 50% of abortions when women choose to abort because half of them would not survive outside the womb anyway. Your half way to being pro choice!Because deities are not human.
Apparently, if they exist, they are terrible leaders too. As you know, a good leader leads by example.
Does that justify humans killing humans?It's not, however, if they exist, they lead by a terrible example when it comes to aborting fetuses.Why is this so hard to understand?
They legislate my ability to take another human life, regardless of my philosophical views. That is what we are talking about here, the right to terminate a human life.Common ground! This is good.No, I am not in favor of 50% of abortions. I am opposed to those abortions performed by humans for which there is no medical justification. This is not an uncommon view. It is just not discussed much, because the argument tends to be for abortion on demand, not abortion for medical reasons.
I'm also not in favor of abortions. What my being in favor of or not in favor of has to do with whether a women is allowed to choose to carry a fetus to term or not is something I don't understand.
What if a person is not in favor of religions? Should they seek to legislate your ability to choose to be religious or not?
It is your scenario,. You said, "You're literally judging a women for removing a fetus she does not want conceived". I am not doing that, because I do not believe that she can remove a fetus until she has conceived it.In the scenario you present, there is no fetus available for removal, so I don't understand your question.How does one remove a fetus one does not want to conceive.
Agreed, but you and I both know that this is not always what happens on our planet. So our dictating what one should do is irrelevant don't you think? Who are you and I anyways to dictate to others what they can or can't do with their bodies?If one does not want a fetus, one should make sure one does not conceive.
We do it all of the time. However, even if I were to grant that people should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies, that does not mean that they are not responsible for the consequences.
No, they are different life forms. We expect dogs to emulate some of our behaviors, but we do not think that they should do everything we do. Regarding your conclusions about deities, neither of them are conclusive, there are a lot of factors involved in those judgements. However, one does not have to believe in deities to oppose humans killing other humans for convenience.If there are deities guiding this world, then we should probably heed their examples wouldn't you think?All I am asking that the same standards be applied to all human life after conception. If a deity makes it so that a human dies, what is one to do? If a human makes it so another human does dies, what is one to do then? Are these really the same thing?
The fact that 50% of fetuses abort naturally evidences the lack of there being gods though don't you think? At least gods that could be argued about caring about us or wanting to have a relationship with us.
Well, as I stated, it is not necessary for there to be deities for the argument to apply. We regulate what people can do with their bodies all of the time, especially when it involves the life of another human being.You are mistaken about my argument. First thing you must understand is that I am not a fan of abortions. I have a hard time finding them as acceptable. However, what I find less acceptable is seeing humans dictate to other humans what they can or can't do with their own bodies. When it comes to abortion, I see the religious doing this the loudest while noting that their god concept is responsible for way, way more abortions and we don't hear a peep from them about that.You are breaking up my statements so that you can throw in different arguments to confuse the issue. Please, keep my statements in context. The point is that women, or men for that matter, are not deities. Also, it is not necessary for there to be deities for the argument to apply. At it's root your argument is that since 50% of fertilized eggs do not come to term naturally, it is acceptable for humans to destroy the unborn simply because they do not want to be responsible for having conceived them.
No, I am addressing the issue that you wish to ignore, that is the killing of humans by humans. I have repeatedly addressed the issue of deities in multiple ways. They are not human, humans kill other life forms with impunity, and deities are not necessary for one to argue that humans should not kill humans simply because they wish to be irresponsible in what they do with their bodies.Thank you for asking for clarification. What I mean in this case is for 'person state' to mean having been born.What do you mean by "the human 'person' state"?
I don't know, but I clarified what I meant by it.How does one determine what a 'person' is?
No, and no one here has made such an argument.If we deem some thing to not be a 'person', then are we permitted to kill it for our convenience?
Your doing it again! You're ignoring, to use your words, all the deaths your god concept is responsible for.Wait, you wish to consider every death prior to birth as the same, yet similar deaths after birth are somehow different. How so?
To answer your question. Yes, I consider a fetus to have less value than a 1 year old for example. You do as well in fact.
Sheep are not intelligent like humans are. Therefore a shepherd would have no reason to lead by example. Gods, if they exist and rule over intelligent humans would lead by example if they were also intelligent. My opinion of course as there could exist nefarious gods that see us more as play things than things to have a relationship with.I made no such qualification. Many may protest and wail as part of the grieving process, but that does not obligate a deity, any deity, any more that the bleating of a ewe obligates the shepherd.
Humans are not deities either and how does any of this excuse humans who killing other humans, because they do not wish to be responsible in what they do with their bodies.
How would one prove that she was not going to have a change of heart?Depends, is the women in question asking for compensation for the loss of the fetus? If so, you would probably need to prove that she was not going to have a change of heart about getting an abortion before giving the person who assaulted her a free pass. Either way though, the assault of course would need to be addressed.I did not ask if she should be compensated for personal injury, pain and suffering. I asked if she should be compensated for the lose of a child.
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Post #58
What does it even mean to abort a person?
I was afraid you might be making an emotional argument.The termination of a pregnancy resulting in the death of a human being.
A terminated fetus does not qualify as a human being for not yet having superior mental development, power of articulate speech, or an upright stance. If it survives the 50% abortion rate set up by the gods (as many presume), and it is not removed by the mother, then it would likely reach the human being qualifier.
Fetuses are aborted. To say human beings are, serves only to muddy the waters and appeal to emotion.
Then in this context, where you are insisting on calling it the killing of a human being, then no, we do not judge people for such a thing as you should know, abortions (the removal of a fetus, not a human being) are legal.It is my understanding that abortion involves the killing of a human being.
To clarify, if any of us are to actually kill a human being, we have laws in place for that and people are then judged.
First of all, the fact that 50% of pregnancies abort, shows to me at least that no caring deities were involved.Does the fact that a deity has established a system that results in 50% of human beings dying justify the killing of human beings by human beings?
To answer your question, only in rare circumstances is it justified to kill another human being and a 50% natural abortion rate has nothing to do with this.
Let's cut and paste my words:Hold it. You just refused to answer the previous question, because you say that deities do not exist.
"Why do the gods get a free pass here for creating a process that is so abysmal?"
"Apparently, if they exist, they are terrible leaders too."
Presume what you wish. Either natural evolution or the gods (or others if you wish to posit) came up with a biological process that aborts 50% of conceptions.Which is it, are we to presume that deities exist or that they do not exist?
Please stay on topic. We are talking about abortions here. All people die, so please stop asking about deities allowing people to live.Is this your argument that requires deities to allow people to live, that they must be "good leaders"?
No, killing humans is rarely justified. Once again though, we are talking about abortions here. You for some reason are unable to stay focused and instead are talking about a different topic, humans killing humans. Are you deliberately trying to obfuscate?Does that justify humans killing humans?
Only in rare circumstances will you be justified in terminating a human life. You are correct, we have laws against murder. Please try to stay focused as you are making this discussion difficult.They legislate my ability to take another human life, regardless of my philosophical views. That is what we are talking about here, the right to terminate a human life.
Obviously, I was talking about removing an unwanted fetus. My mistake for having typed 'conceived' here as that is illogical and not what I meant.It is your scenario,. You said, "You're literally judging a women for removing a fetus she does not want conceived".
Correct. Any women that chooses to not attempt to try to carry a fetus will be responsible for any consequences, if there are any.However, even if I were to grant that people should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies, that does not mean that they are not responsible for the consequences.
How you can pretend to know this information? What if the gods are nothing other than advanced humans traveling back in time? What if there are no gods? If either of these scenarios are true, your claim above is false.No, they are different life forms.
Your scapegoat also does not address how we could even begin to argue for gods that care about having a relationship with us.
Thanks for helping to put this into perspective!We expect dogs to emulate some of our behaviors, but we do not think that they should do everything we do. Regarding your conclusions about deities, neither of them are conclusive, there are a lot of factors involved in those judgements. However, one does not have to believe in deities to oppose humans killing other humans for convenience.
Imagine this dog you bring up. Pretend it wants nothing more than to have some puppies. Would you, if it was in your power, create a system where 50% of puppies abort naturally? Would that seem logical to you?
Yes, we regulate what one human can do to another being that possess superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance. In other words, a human being.Well, as I stated, it is not necessary for there to be deities for the argument to apply. We regulate what people can do with their bodies all of the time, especially when it involves the life of another human being.
We are talking about abortion here. We do not abort human beings. I can only assume you having nothing but an appeal to emotion by your continued obfuscation. This is telling.
I'm with you on this and it does not need to be addressed again.No, I am addressing the issue that you wish to ignore, that is the killing of humans by humans.
I am against humans killing other humans, same as you (with exceptions of course).
What you failed to address was how your justification seems to rule out caring gods that want to have a relationship with us humans, or how they are terrible examples if they do exist.I have repeatedly addressed the issue of deities in multiple ways.
<Snipped for once again being about killing other humans>
Here we are talking about abortion:
Abortion is the ending of pregnancy by removing an embryo or fetus before it can survive outside the uterus.
<Snipped again for once again being about killing other humans>
Here we are talking about abortion:
Abortion is the ending of pregnancy by removing an embryo or fetus before it can survive outside the uterus.
Neither a fetus nor an embryo has the value that a human being has. Therefore, you can stop talking about humans murdering other humans.
A jury would have to decide. Either way, I urge you to not go around committing violent assault on women who may be about to abort a fetus.How would one prove that she was not going to have a change of heart?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Post #59
I'm sorry but this is one of the worst set of criteria I've heard for defining a human being. Everything you said would mean that babies aren't human beings either. Try again, and maybe look up some or your sides definitions for human beings. They're all sorely lacking, but they're better than yours.Clownboat wrote: I was afraid you might be making an emotional argument.
A terminated fetus does not qualify as a human being for not yet having superior mental development, power of articulate speech, or an upright stance. If it survives the 50% abortion rate set up by the gods (as many presume), and it is not removed by the mother, then it would likely reach the human being qualifier.
Fetuses are aborted. To say human beings are, serves only to muddy the waters and appeal to emotion.
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Re: Abortion
Post #60Acceptable, yes. Desirable, no.Texan Christian wrote: Do y'all believe it is acceptable for a woman to have an abortion?
In my opinion the time when zero abortions happen worldwide is long distant into the future. This time is to be devoutly to be desired, but it is not now, and legal constraints on women and girls to force conformity to someone else's conception of morality will not make it happen sooner. The only way this controversy can be rightly won is when all pregnant women and girls are persuaded that abortion is the worst possible option available to them. And that means that their other choices, to have and keep their child, or to have and give up their child for adoption, must be made more attractive.
In other words, we need to win the moral argument, not the political, legislative one. If we can do that, (and we should be able to, given the arguments pro and con work out decisively against killing the unborn) the politics become irrelevant, anyway, because abortions will not even be wanted. If we try to specify what someone else's morality should be, on the other hand, using the law, we are in for a long, bitter, divisive, unproductive struggle that will serve only to prolong women's suffering and the deaths of babes.
Best wishes, 2RM.