OnceConvinced wrote:Word_Swordsman wrote:.
Let me dispel the possibility of God having anything to do with creating homosexuality in a person.
OnceConvinced wrote:That isn't a magic incantation you just made there. Dispelling something is going to take a lot more than just saying that a claim is wrong and then quoting a few scriptures that most Christians can't agree on and that unbelievers don't see as authorative (especially when they see what science is proving).
It doesn't matter how many Christians agree or disagree over commands in the Bible. They are still in there and quite clearly laid out for anyone capable of reading comprehension to learn what God says about some human actions.
There is more to it than reading it and comprehending it. It's also necessary to take it in context and try to understand a little about the back ground behind what is written. In the Leviticus reference, another respected Christian member of this site has already pointed out how this scripture is to be taken. As far as I can see you have not refuted his perspective on it.
God is not nor ever will be the author of confusion regardless of passions of people.
So the bible would claim, however in reality we do see instances where God has deliberately gone out of his way to confuse and to mislead. eg Creating light first before creating the light sources. Many Christians would have us believe that he created light in transit, thus only making it look as though it had travelled hundreds of thousands of years to get to us. He also made our world look as though it was 100s of thousands of years old. There are also scriptures where he sends delusions on people and also makes them believe lies. He also had me believing for over 30 years that I was a "true Christian", but according to some Christians who come through this site I never was.
Word_Swordsman wrote:
I won't rule out secular possibilities, such as genetic malfunctions, which of course can't logically be assigned to an act of God.
OnceConvinced wrote:These scriptures strongly suggest any trait we are born with, positive and negative are a result of God:
Psa 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
John 9: 1-3
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Even if you want to ignore that last scripture there and claim for someone to be born homosexual it is a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, God allowed it to happen. It was his system that he set in place to allow people to be born with abnomalities. So no matter what way you look at it, God is still very responsible.
Word_Swordsman wrote:
God doesn't declare a sin an abomination with a mighty curse on it then turn around and create a human prone from birth to sin an abomination.
So you claim, but the scriptures I quoted tend to suggest that he does. You first have to prove that homosexuality is an abnormality or a handicap. All you can really do is quote scripture which you have interpretted to mean something, that other learned Christians on this site disagree with and have made good arguments to back up their statements.
Yes, God does allow some people to be born with physical and mental handicaps. I would agree that a person wanting to be homosexual does so sometimes from a position of mental handicap.
I'm sure that most homosexuals will claim they never chose to become a homosexual (I have debated with many homosexuals on line in the past). They claim they are tendencies they are born with. I think there is enough evidence available to show that it is genetic. It may indeed be an abnomality, but nobody has proven that either. I mean come on. Surely WS, even the thought of it must disgust you, like it does me! Can you really believe any heterosexual male could possibly even consider becoming homosexual?
But the scriptures also teach God allows some to be born with deficiencies with the aim of God getting glory through their healing. We now know people can damage their bodies through drugs and poisons, setting up heavy odds of a birth defect. God allows the sins against our bodies, we being heirs of dominion on earth, but doesn't promise all affected humans will be healed. Even Jesus failed to heal many because of unbelief.
Note that the man in your reference in John 9 was healed of his birth defect.
Ex 4:11 had to do with Moses complaining he didn't have a strong speech ability. God was simply telling Moses He could use it anyway, being creator of mouths, regardless of condition of the mouth.
Look at that Psalm in greater context. Psalm 139:13-16 "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. [14] I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. [15] My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. [16] Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
Note that the human in a womb is not a result of a direct act of creation. The fetus is made via a complex set of biological stages. However, they are guided (held) by God who doesn't recreate existing genes to assure a perfect infant. God's works are the processes He set in motion for humans to reproduce without need of creating another human.
God is not responsible for destructive behaviors in people. God tempts no person to sin. He sent His only begotten Son to die so that people could be delivered from sin and the sting of death.
God is most certainly resonsible. He set the rules in motion. He allowed sin to enter the world. He created mankind with a rebellious streak. He knew before hand what would happen. He knows the fate of every human being he allows life to. But yet he does nothing to prevent these things from happening.
Let's say he creates someone with homosexual tendencies (something he intends this person to be healed of). He knows that many of those people will never be healed of the infliction. They will never repent and never be healed. But yet he still creates them that way. They were doomed to hell the day he designed them. You may try to claim that all who Jesus intended to heal do get healed. But then that would be claiming all those who died homosexuals were homosexuals because they chose to be, but unless we are in denial, we will know that is not the case. No one chooses to be homosexual, just as no one chooses to be heterosexual.
I, like you, used to believe the same thing. That homosexuality was an abomonation. That it was a chosen life style. If anyone was born that way it was due to an abnormality. No kidding this is what I believed as a Christian. However over the last few years I have come to realise that I could not continue to close my eyes to the studies done. I could no longer ignore the claims made by homosexuals themselves, that they were born with those tendencies. After all, they should know! The only conclusion one can logically come to is that the bible is wrong to condemn it OR the bible is not being interpreted as intended.
