Are governments such as these United States based on the Spirit of Christ?
seeing eye to eye
Please respond short and sweet and fewer words are sometimes better.
Are Governments such as the United States of America based on the Spirit of Christ.et.al?
You go first.
What is the greatest commandment? The fewer Words the better.
ItS
peace
r~
Is the US a Christian Nation?
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open mind and dose with reality
Post #171The spirit of Christ is hidden between the lines of the Declaration of Independence and the Ninth Amendment, where open minds see what others will not.
ItS
liberty and justice, equal for al.
r~
ItS
liberty and justice, equal for al.
r~
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Neatras
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Re: open mind and dose with reality
Post #172[Replying to post 170 by r~]
How nebulous. And yet your claim is as valid as any other nonsense, because you haven't demonstrated a lick of what you said. Let's put this another way:
"Cthulu lurks in the Declaration of Independence and the Ninth Amendment. Only those who are willfully ignorant will fail to see it."
This is absolutely unjustified positing of the nature and intent of previously living creators of our government and bill of rights.
What's more, this is insulting. You're claiming that 'open minds will see it, and others will not'. Obviously, this insinuates that anyone who does not see what you see (which you are so adamant is 'truth') is close-minded, or otherwise inferior. Don't flaunt superiority you can't back up, and don't even begin to think you can get there by begging the question. This is disgraceful.
How nebulous. And yet your claim is as valid as any other nonsense, because you haven't demonstrated a lick of what you said. Let's put this another way:
"Cthulu lurks in the Declaration of Independence and the Ninth Amendment. Only those who are willfully ignorant will fail to see it."
This is absolutely unjustified positing of the nature and intent of previously living creators of our government and bill of rights.
What's more, this is insulting. You're claiming that 'open minds will see it, and others will not'. Obviously, this insinuates that anyone who does not see what you see (which you are so adamant is 'truth') is close-minded, or otherwise inferior. Don't flaunt superiority you can't back up, and don't even begin to think you can get there by begging the question. This is disgraceful.
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sf
Post #173
This is a long-lived topic, so I didn't read all 18 pages of messages. It's important to notice that even if America was a Christian nation originally, it definitely is NOT now.
A great movie that traces America's Christian roots is the movie Monumental: http://www.monumentalmovie.com/
One of the interesting things discussed in that movie was The National Monument to the Forefathers. I can't find anything on the Internet with much detail on it though. Here is it's main website and the Wikipedia article and an article from 1991 about it. The movie describes it in much better detail than anything I've found so far.
A great movie that traces America's Christian roots is the movie Monumental: http://www.monumentalmovie.com/
One of the interesting things discussed in that movie was The National Monument to the Forefathers. I can't find anything on the Internet with much detail on it though. Here is it's main website and the Wikipedia article and an article from 1991 about it. The movie describes it in much better detail than anything I've found so far.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #174
This thread is an oldy but a goody lol not really much debate going on in this thread but some interesting posts none the less.sfisher wrote: This is a long-lived topic, so I didn't read all 18 pages of messages. It's important to notice that even if America was a Christian nation originally, it definitely is NOT now.
A great movie that traces America's Christian roots is the movie Monumental: http://www.monumentalmovie.com/
One of the interesting things discussed in that movie was The National Monument to the Forefathers. I can't find anything on the Internet with much detail on it though. Here is it's main website and the Wikipedia article and an article from 1991 about it. The movie describes it in much better detail than anything I've found so far.
Let's just agree for a moment that when talking about whether or not the US is a christian nation we are not talking about the government(which has always been a secular democracy and never has it ever been a christian theocracy) we are instead talking about the make up of its people.
Given that we are talking about the make up of its people why is the US not a christian nation?
Post #175
While the population of the US is significantly Christian, the Post above clearly asks about the government of the US. One can gather that is the subject of his post even more as you read R~'s rather cryptic and evasive responses.DanieltheDragon wrote:This thread is an oldy but a goody lol not really much debate going on in this thread but some interesting posts none the less.sfisher wrote: This is a long-lived topic, so I didn't read all 18 pages of messages. It's important to notice that even if America was a Christian nation originally, it definitely is NOT now.
A great movie that traces America's Christian roots is the movie Monumental: http://www.monumentalmovie.com/
One of the interesting things discussed in that movie was The National Monument to the Forefathers. I can't find anything on the Internet with much detail on it though. Here is it's main website and the Wikipedia article and an article from 1991 about it. The movie describes it in much better detail than anything I've found so far.
Let's just agree for a moment that when talking about whether or not the US is a christian nation we are not talking about the government(which has always been a secular democracy and never has it ever been a christian theocracy) we are instead talking about the make up of its people.
Given that we are talking about the make up of its people why is the US not a christian nation?
Given that the question of the religious affiliation of the US's population can be learned from simple polls and a census, there doesn't seem to be much room for a debate.
So to answer your question: "Given that we are talking about the make up of its people why is the US not a christian nation?" my answer would be: most of its citizens are, but not all.
But where's the fun in that conversation? : )
-All the best,
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
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sf
Post #176
When I think of the concept of "the US" (or any country) being "a Christian nation," I think of Christianity not just in people's personal lives but also out in the open in both government and business dealings/meetings/etc.KenRU wrote:While the population of the US is significantly Christian, the Post above clearly asks about the government of the US.
Post #177
[Replying to post 175 by sfisher]
If you mean that a person's religion influences their decision making process, I most definitely agree.
But that is a far cry from the US government being considered a theocratic country.
If you mean that a person's religion influences their decision making process, I most definitely agree.
But that is a far cry from the US government being considered a theocratic country.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
listen up oxy brains
Post #178UPDATED POLL RESULTS
Some deny the greatest command. Some deny the rule of law. Some know not the spirit of christ. Some know not the spirit of liberty. Some not even know "Christian Theocracy" is oxymoron. And answer not most relevant questions.
Is US a Christian nation?
If enlightened by the greatest command and rule of law...YES
If logic based on fallacy or denial or ignorance….……........NO
Ipso facto makes it so, ...clattering of NOs...not so much
What is the difference between innocent and willful ignorance?
ItS
truth
r~
how might 0ne better 'splain color to blind skeptics
how about quantum harmonies
Some deny the greatest command. Some deny the rule of law. Some know not the spirit of christ. Some know not the spirit of liberty. Some not even know "Christian Theocracy" is oxymoron. And answer not most relevant questions.
Is US a Christian nation?
If enlightened by the greatest command and rule of law...YES
If logic based on fallacy or denial or ignorance….……........NO
Ipso facto makes it so, ...clattering of NOs...not so much
What is the difference between innocent and willful ignorance?
ItS
truth
r~
how might 0ne better 'splain color to blind skeptics
how about quantum harmonies
Re: Is the US a Christian Nation?
Post #179[Replying to r~][Replying to post 1 by r~]
The question, as worded, is difficult to answer.
You'd need to be explicit about how you define 'Spirit of Christ.'
What are the attributes of this Spirit that can not be attributed to anything else?
Those Americans in favor of Revolution all had religious training and influence from early age, no doubt about it.
A great debate can be had about the origin of the ideas that a common man does not, in fact, have to follow a singular, unelected leader.
If you want to argue that that line of argumentation is Christian in origin, I'll listen.
It seems that they were more politically aligned with what is most commonly called Enlightenment ideals.
Like so many other phenomenon, we like many products traced to the Enlightenment such as the ideas of liberty, equality and human rights. The French Revolution, however, was the very embodiment of Enlightenment ideals run amok while the gutters overflowed with blood.
Honestly, I don't actually understand the emphasis people choose to place around our founding documents or our early nation or the men that were present.
The vast majority of the men who were the political founders of the United States were either slave-holders themselves or were economically connected to the slave trade.
As far as the Constitution, it purposefully left itself amendable and Constitution V 1.0 already had 10 of them.
John Hancock was the biggest bootlegger in this hemisphere.
Franklin had it right when he castigated future generations for elevating these men to the status of 'demi-gods' (His word, not mine) the framers of the Constitution.
I can offer some notable anti-proof to the idea that the US was founded as a Christian nation: Please find the word 'God' anywhere in the Constitution.
You are free to interpret its absence any way you choose but that fact could be used in support of the "No, the US is not a Christian Nation" side of this debate.
The question, as worded, is difficult to answer.
You'd need to be explicit about how you define 'Spirit of Christ.'
What are the attributes of this Spirit that can not be attributed to anything else?
Those Americans in favor of Revolution all had religious training and influence from early age, no doubt about it.
A great debate can be had about the origin of the ideas that a common man does not, in fact, have to follow a singular, unelected leader.
If you want to argue that that line of argumentation is Christian in origin, I'll listen.
It seems that they were more politically aligned with what is most commonly called Enlightenment ideals.
Like so many other phenomenon, we like many products traced to the Enlightenment such as the ideas of liberty, equality and human rights. The French Revolution, however, was the very embodiment of Enlightenment ideals run amok while the gutters overflowed with blood.
Honestly, I don't actually understand the emphasis people choose to place around our founding documents or our early nation or the men that were present.
The vast majority of the men who were the political founders of the United States were either slave-holders themselves or were economically connected to the slave trade.
As far as the Constitution, it purposefully left itself amendable and Constitution V 1.0 already had 10 of them.
John Hancock was the biggest bootlegger in this hemisphere.
Franklin had it right when he castigated future generations for elevating these men to the status of 'demi-gods' (His word, not mine) the framers of the Constitution.
I can offer some notable anti-proof to the idea that the US was founded as a Christian nation: Please find the word 'God' anywhere in the Constitution.
You are free to interpret its absence any way you choose but that fact could be used in support of the "No, the US is not a Christian Nation" side of this debate.
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Danmark
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Post #180
The idea that the United States is a Christian Nation is simply wrong. It is a common misconception. Erexsaur's recent post provides a good example of this error:
More importantly, I am not aware of a single reference in the U.S. Constitution to "Jesus" or "Christian."
There is, however, a specific reference forbidding the government to establish a State religion. This is a secular nation and always has been, despite the fact that a majority of its population may have considered themselves Christian, in one form or another, during its founding.
As a response to Roosevelt's New Deal, great business interests started a campaign in the 30's that culminated in "one nation under God" being added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950's.
One Nation Under God, Kruse, documents this history.
Altho' the Declaration of Independence makes reference to rights endowed by the Creator, this was a rhetorical flourish in what was, in essence, a declaration of war.What is the use of any claim on the witness stand that’s not based what’s written? Can the judge use it? If a governmental system is based on rights endowed by the Creator and that “governments are instated among men to secure these (God given) rights,� shouldn’t I be free to discuss vital precepts of the giver of our rights?
More importantly, I am not aware of a single reference in the U.S. Constitution to "Jesus" or "Christian."
There is, however, a specific reference forbidding the government to establish a State religion. This is a secular nation and always has been, despite the fact that a majority of its population may have considered themselves Christian, in one form or another, during its founding.
As a response to Roosevelt's New Deal, great business interests started a campaign in the 30's that culminated in "one nation under God" being added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950's.
One Nation Under God, Kruse, documents this history.
