Can democracy and human rights flourish in a Muslim society?

[t]

Can democracy and human rights flourish in a Muslim society?

[dangerdan]

What if it is a fundamental tenet of the church/mosque that the state must be governed by church/Islamic law?

I’m not sure how fundamental to major Islamic theologies this is. But I have little doubt that a more liberal theology could grow that recognizes the value of a separation of Mosque and state, even if some parts of the Koran suggest they shouldn’t be separated.

I’m quite sure I could find a couple verses in the Bible suggesting that the Church and Government is ideal when combined, perhaps I could find one referring to King David’s stupendous rule and what not.

I have been to Turkey - try a visit and get away from the tourist areas, your eyes will be opened to the sheer scale of human rights abuses in what is a pseudodemocracy.

Yeah, this is what I was suspecting. I know Chomsky is always name dropping Turkey in examples of tyrannical leadership the west has supported, though unfortunately I can’t boast to be an expert on the country.

[bernee51]

I have been to Turkey - try a visit and get away from the tourist areas, your eyes will be opened to the sheer scale of human rights abuses in what is a pseudodemocracy.

Yeah, this is what I was suspecting. I know Chomsky is always name dropping Turkey in examples of tyrannical leadership the west has supported, though unfortunately I can’t boast to be an expert on the country.

I have visited Turkey twice - once in 1976 then again in 1992.

On the first visit I hitchhiked around south and central Turkey - well away from tourist areas. I cannot say that I saw obvious abuses of human rights, What I did see was a "third world" culture. I was treated with kindness and generosity, given food and accommodation, by people in remote villages whose total wordly goods would have been less than the contents of my backpack.

The second visit was much more oriented to the west coast tourist spots. Again - no obvious human rights abuses.

I'm sure there were cases of abuse. Even modern western democracies have ther own patterns of abuse - Guantanemo Bay and the incarceration of asylum seekers (children included) in Australia come to mind. Both Australia and the USofA pride themselves on the strength of their democracy and adherence to christian values.

Perhaps given time and the influence of modern interpretations of koranic verse democracy will be able to sit side by side with Islam.

[MagusYanam]

Before taking part in any discussion of human rights and Islam, I would highly encourage people to read this interview:

http://www.sweb.cz/teoma2/

This interview is with Shirin Ebadi, an Iranian official and Shi'a Muslim. She also won the Nobel Peace Prize for her efforts in furthering the causes of women's rights and human rights in an Islamic framework. She has given numerous interviews and talks with various news publications and college campuses (I heard her speak at Brown University last year).

She makes a very good point about how interpretation of Islam can make all the difference in the world. It is noteworthy, then, that the majority of Muslims have very moderate to liberal views on democracy and human rights - but that the ones who get the most press are those who are most fervently against democracy and human rights (especially in American news sources).

[hannahjoy]

I’m not sure how fundamental to major Islamic theologies this is. But I have little doubt that a more liberal theology could grow that recognizes the value of a separation of Mosque and state, even if some parts of the Koran suggest they shouldn’t be separated.

In that case, would it really be a Muslim state/society?

I’m quite sure I could find a couple verses in the Bible suggesting that the Church and Government is ideal when combined, perhaps I could find one referring to King David’s stupendous rule and what not.

As far as I know, there are no such verses applying to Christians, only to OT Israel. Israel was originally a theocracy, but when they demanded a king, there was a separation between the government and the "church". Kings, such as David, were still responsible for enforcing God's law, but they were not religious leaders. In fact, one king was inflicted with leprosy when he ignored the priests' warning that it was not his place to offer incense in the Temple - only the priests could do that (II Chronicles 26:16-21).
This was different from what happened when Henry VIII broke with the Catholic Church - he declared himself to be the head of the national church as well as the government. There was not freedom to worship apart from the official Church of England. That is what the founders of the US government were trying to avoid when they set up the "separation of church and state."

Hannah Joy

[Karl]

(potwalloper - Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:20 am)

"......Religious fundamentalism and democracy are, in my view, mutually exclusive."

Your comment is most certainly spot-on.

(MagusYanam - Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:24 pm)
".....She makes a very good point about how interpretation of Islam can make all the difference in the world. It is noteworthy, then, that the majority of Muslims have very moderate to liberal views on democracy and human rights - but that the ones who get the most press are those who are most fervently against democracy and human rights (especially in American news sources).

I concur, and think you for posting the link.

Fundamentalists (of any persuasion) generally have either no concept of or no regard for the Beauty of Esoteric Teachings in the Holy Books, such as the Qur'an or the Bible, being more interested in dogma, legalism, guilt and control-mongering. To the rabid fundie, the externalities of religion and dogma (with possibly some custom "interpretations" or home-made "commmandments" thrown in for good measure) take precident over Inner Growth and Spirituality which is the MOST IMPORTANT THING that every religious leader has the responsibility to help his or her assembly with. In the case of the loveless, domineering fundies, the poor sheeple of course obey, because they don't want to be ostracized and/or "go to "hell""(also possible are physical abuse, or worse, as we've witnessed on CNN, etc.).

One of my favorite books is by Sufi Mystic and Master, Hazrat Inayat Khan, 'The Music of Life'. Everyone interested in Spirituality will enjoy Khan's excellent books.

There are many Progressive Muslims in the world, but they don't get the press, because the extremists are involved in all the horror. I know some Progressive Muslims, and they are some of the finest people you would ever want to meet. I think that a Progressive Muslim majority could set up a democracy and make it work. The problem would be the extremists, who sanction violence as a means to their end, as per the sometimes primitive medieval mentality they exhibit.

I have had the pleasure of viewing a couple of films by Pakistani journalist Sharmeen Obaid, who is herself a Progressive Muslim. She goes into details about reduced freedoms under extremist religionists, and how some children are indoctrinated with fear and hate in the small minority of radicalized madrasas. Her films are shown on the Discovery Times Channel from time to time, for those readers that have cable TV. They are a very good view, IMO. In my brief on-line exchanges with Sharmeen, I found her to be very Spiritual, friendly, reasoned and intelligent. You can read more about Sharmeen at her website:

http://www.sharmeenobaidfilms.com

(hannahjoy - Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:21 pm)
".....There was not freedom to worship apart from the official Church of England. That is what the founders of the US government were trying to avoid when they set up the "separation of church and state."

There it is. Thank you for that!

Best regards,

K

[przemeknowicki]

I have visited Turkey twice - once in 1976 then again in 1992.
On the first visit I hitchhiked around south and central Turkey - well away from tourist areas. I cannot say that I saw obvious abuses of human rights, What I did see was a "third world" culture. I was treated with kindness and generosity, given food and accommodation, by people in remote villages whose total wordly goods would have been less than the contents of my backpack.

Perhaps given time and the influence of modern interpretations of koranic verse democracy will be able to sit side by side with Islam.

I spent two years in Turkey 1982-1984. I've seen Turkish hospitality you describe, I've seen amazing examples of national pride, I've witnessed embarrassing clashes of American culture with Turkish customs and mentality. However, what I really learned about Turkey was from conversations with Turkish "experts" and from visits to the library.

I don't think that Turkish democracy is self-sustainable. It exists because of the strong secular forces dedicated to the vision set by Ataturk. However, those secular forces are clearly separated from the nation as such. They are especially strong in the army, which is responsible for "adjusting" the national course whenever the secular democracy started falling apart.

And that brings an interesting question. Why Turkish democracy can hardly stand on its own legs? Well, because inevitably democratically elected governments invite corruption, the rich grow richer, the poor grow poorer and the Islam organizations win the hearts of underprivileged by helping the poor.

There are many interesting issues arising from comparing Turkish and American realities but unfortunately they would not fit into the limited frame of this discussion thread. Therefore I will signal only two. First, I want to challenge the popular view that democracy is the best form of the government we can have in this age. Secondly, I want to raise the question why Islam is so effective in exploiting the shortcomings of political systems to its own advantage. I have my own opinion and answers to these questions but I would like to hear yours first.

To cast a vote on the issue discussed in this thread I would say no, democracy cannot flourish in a Muslim society. However, I would not put the blame for this state of affairs on Islam. Well, not entirely on Islam.

Regards,

Thomas Orr