Can democracy and human rights flourish in a Muslim society?

t · Post by t » Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:27 pm

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:56 am

AngryMcFurious wrote:Greenvile News: My Source

Theres my source. Jeeze people I'm debating for fun not writing a school paper for yall!

Sorry if you find this ...er.. infuriating, Angry McFurious, but it's important for establishing some credibility. Not even Christians take on faith things they are told by strangers.

Post by **otseng** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:17 am

AngryMcFurious wrote:
Jeeze people I'm debating for fun not writing a school paper for yall!

I would concur with what Corvus has stated.

There are two general categories in this forum - debate and discussion. In the discussion subforums, one can say basically anything without having the need to support it. However, in the debate subforums, supporting evidence is required. You might not have to state it right away, but if asked for it, you better be able to pull it out of your pocket.

Though this is not "school", in some ways, the level of debate here is higher than what you would find at schools. Certainly the group of people here are strong debaters. So, anything posted in this forum will get close scrutiny. There is not a teacher to grade your writings, but there are many debaters around the world judging the posts and the posters.

Gaining credibility and respect are very important in debates. Without it, very little said will make any impressions on others. Look here on tips to gain credibility and respect.

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:17 am

Sorry to bring it back a couple posts guys, but I was just curious that I was interpreting the example of Turkey (as sarcastic) correctly. If so, then it was pretty funny. If not, I think there is much debate over Turkey’s human rights record and whether it would be a suitable first example of a stable Muslim orientated country. You were being facetious, weren’t you?

I quite like some aspects of Islam. For example it places a high degree of value on learning. That is heart warming. As long as there is a separation of church and state…errr….i mean mosque and state, then I see no difficulty in a healthy democracy flourishing. After all, a healthy democracy flourished in America from religious fundamentalist “Puritans”. (though arguably America’s democracy isn’t looking too healthy now a days

)

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:33 am

dangerdan wrote:Sorry to bring it back a couple posts guys, but I was just curious that I was interpreting the example of Turkey (as sarcastic) correctly. If so, then it was pretty funny. If not, I think there is much debate over Turkey’s human rights record and whether it would be a suitable first example of a stable Muslim orientated country. You were being facetious, weren’t you?

I'm facetious half of the time. In that particular moment; yes, of course! Turkey is the best of a bad bunch, though. Aside from slaughtering kurds, a few restrictions on freedom of assembly and some cases of torture, they haven't done too badly, have they? And I do believe they have been making valiant efforts to address their poor human rights record since they were accepted into the EU.

Nameless · Post by **Nameless** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:21 pm

I would answer, if a 'Muslim society' means governed according to Muslim fundamental laws, that the answer would be 'no more than a Christian society'. Fundamentalists of any stripe are basically intolerant fascists, an atmosphere unsupportive of 'democracy and human rights'.

science1 · Post by **science1** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:10 pm

I believe human rights can and do flourish in Muslim society it's just that all the evil being present to us in the media is covering it up. I have read a varity of books that describe many places in the Middle East as very hospitable.
As far as democracy goes if a Muslim society decides to have that type of government then i am sure it will strive. But if we keep pushing our government on other countries it cannot.

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:34 pm

Islam and democracy are not necessarilyincompatible if we are talking about moderate Islam. Of course, fundamentalist muslims tend to favor theocracies and theocracies can never be democracies. I would also object to the idea of "true democracy" as mob rule. Mob rule would mean that minorities would probably be marginalized, and that is not democratic.
Also, I'm not sure US democracy flourished out of Puritanism (Puritans persecuted each other in the New World too) but out of Deism, Natural Religion, and Enlightenment ideas. Puritanism tends to be rather intolerant--ask the people of Salem, Mass.

hannahjoy · Post by **hannahjoy** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:00 pm

I would also object to the idea of "true democracy" as mob rule. Mob rule would mean that minorities would probably be marginalized, and that is not democratic.

"Pure" democracy (what I assume Corvus meant by "true" democracy) is majority rule - 50%+1. If the US was a pure democracy, minorities would definitely be marginalized - but it's not.

hannahjoy · Post by **hannahjoy** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:03 pm

As long as there is a separation of church and state…errr….i mean mosque and state, then I see no difficulty in a healthy democracy flourishing.

What if it is a fundamental tenet of the church/mosque that the state must be governed by church/Islamic law?

potwalloper. · Post by **potwalloper.** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:20 am

Corvus wrote:
dangerdan wrote:Sorry to bring it back a couple posts guys, but I was just curious that I was interpreting the example of Turkey (as sarcastic) correctly. If so, then it was pretty funny. If not, I think there is much debate over Turkey’s human rights record and whether it would be a suitable first example of a stable Muslim orientated country. You were being facetious, weren’t you?
I'm facetious half of the time. In that particular moment; yes, of course! Turkey is the best of a bad bunch, though. Aside from slaughtering kurds, a few restrictions on freedom of assembly and some cases of torture, they haven't done too badly, have they? And I do believe they have been making valiant efforts to address their poor human rights record since they were accepted into the EU.

Well - for a start Turkey has not been accepted into the EU in spite of trying...because, primarily, of their human rights record both within their own country and in Cyprus (where Greek Cypriots remain disenfranchised to this day).

I have been to Turkey - try a visit and get away from the tourist areas, your eyes will be opened to the sheer scale of human rights abuses in what is a pseudodemocracy.

There is a fundamental conflict between the principles of Islamic law and those of democracy as interpreted in the West. As such I do not believe that any truly Islamic country will ever be able to operate democracy in a means that would be deemed acceptable to non-islamic observers.

Religious fundamentalism and democracy are, in my view, mutually exclusive.