Aboloshing the first amendment?

[DanieltheDragon]

Some people do not like the first amendment that protects freedom of religion and freedom of press.

What happens to Atheists, non-theists, Hindus,Muslims, and Jews in this vision of America?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 39 by JP Cusick]

Then I would hope and expect to see a completely new type of religion sponsored by the new State Theocracy, and work out the particulars after gaining the power in a coup - in a revolution

Well if they are going to work out the particulars later looks like the baptists are in charge seeing as how they represent the largest denomination followed by pentacostals. Every other group is to small and divergent in their views to make a dent in the voting bloc of baptists.

What your describing actually resembles Iraq and Syria. So we would probably have countless coups and wars for various religious groups vying for control of the theocracy.

I think it would be a lot easier if you just established your own commune so like minded individuals could practice your beliefs in a corner without inciting constant war and violence.

[JP Cusick]

Well if they are going to work out the particulars later looks like the baptists are in charge seeing as how they represent the largest denomination followed by pentacostals. Every other group is to small and divergent in their views to make a dent in the voting bloc of baptists.

We must have faith in God for such things to happen.

In the scriptures it says that God commands = "COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE" Revelation 18:4

And when God says to "come out" then the people come out, as no one can really say no to God.

What your describing actually resembles Iraq and Syria. So we would probably have countless coups and wars for various religious groups vying for control of the theocracy.

Pessimism and lack of faith.

Ba humbug.

I think it would be a lot easier if you just established your own commune so like minded individuals could practice your beliefs in a corner without inciting constant war and violence.

I do not really incite violence or war - as this is just a vague discussion here.

The very worse curse that God gives is to leave people alone - as like leaving the Roman Empire to stand for 500 years was a cruel cursing - so too if the USA stands for another 100 years then it too will be a cruel curse to wallow in our self made sins and debaucheries.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 42 by JP Cusick]

We must have faith in God for such things to happen.

Believers are free to have their beliefs in God. The problem is that believers invariably demand others to to have the same beliefs. The history of religion has been of the majority belief attempting to impose its beliefs on the minority.

And when God says to "come out" then the people come out, as no one can really say no to God.

I've been saying "no" to God for 55 years now. It's been working out just fine.

What your describing actually resembles Iraq and Syria. So we would probably have countless coups and wars for various religious groups vying for control of the theocracy.

Pessimism and lack of faith.

Ba humbug.

Here is an historical example of the majority, the Catholics, "imposing" their beliefs on a Christian minority, the Waldensians, that the Catholics had declared heretics.

"Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

This is an example of what occurs when one group takes it on themselves to be the arbiter of what other people can believe.

BAH! HUMBUG!

If that is not explicit enough, then let's be clear. Your system of thought is dangerous

The very worse curse that God gives is to leave people alone - as like leaving the Roman Empire to stand for 500 years was a cruel cursing - so too if the USA stands for another 100 years then it too will be a cruel curse to wallow in our self made sins and debaucheries.

In May 381, Roman emperor Theodosius I issued several decrees making Christianity officially the only legally sanctioned religion of the Roman empire. The beginning of the Dark Ages is generally dated as beginning in 400 AD. Let's NOT make that mistake again!

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to JP Cusick]

I do not really incite violence or war - as this is just a vague discussion here.

It might be a vague discussion here but you have made it clear given the resources and support you would incite violence and war. You might not really be doing it, but heaven forbid enough of you get together and actually carry out these violent thoughts.

It is not like you are alone either right wing Christian groups represent the largest demographic of domestic terrorism. Your rhetoric is no different than that of ISIS, you only lack the resources to carry out your wishes.

If I refuse to be a Christian or behave under your moral guidelines what happens to me in your utopia?

[JP Cusick]

It might be a vague discussion here but you have made it clear given the resources and support you would incite violence and war. You might not really be doing it, but heaven forbid enough of you get together and actually carry out these violent thoughts.

It is not like you are alone either right wing Christian groups represent the largest demographic of domestic terrorism. Your rhetoric is no different than that of ISIS, you only lack the resources to carry out your wishes.

If I refuse to be a Christian or behave under your moral guidelines what happens to me in your utopia?

Changing the 1st Amendment and other of the original Amendments has been the talk of Politicians for many long years, and many attempts to put rightful restrictions have been stopped by the Supreme Court, and those setbacks only add fuel to those who really want the changes.

My view is just that the "Bill of Rights" is not the only problem, because democracy is a fundamentally flawed system which is dangerous in effect, and so the entire system - the entire Constitution is no longer healthy nor productive, and the system of Capitalism too is a vicious monster feeding on everything and sucking the life out of every one.

You seem to worry about Christian groups, while I see them as mostly timid and docile and complicit.

At present there is no group nor person anywhere who has the merit to actually do anything.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 45 by JP Cusick]

We have seen how your utopia plays out though. There have already been Christian theocratic governments. The Roman Empire, European monarchies, the power of the Catholic Church prior to the Protestant revolution, and Protestant monarchies.

Those who gain such authoritarian power always abuse the minorities. Again look to the Middle East countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Suadi Arabia, and others for examples of your utopia.

Again I ask what would happen to atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews in your theocratic autocracy?

So far all I am hearing is a revolutionary overthrow to do away with basic rights and liberties to install a dictatorship and enforce your religious will upon all people. Forgive me if I think that sounds like an existential threat to my existence.

[JP Cusick]

We have seen how your utopia plays out though. There have already been Christian theocratic governments. The Roman Empire, European monarchies, the power of the Catholic Church prior to the Protestant revolution, and Protestant monarchies.

The idea is to learn from the past and do not make the same mistakes again.

Do it right this time.

Those who gain such authoritarian power always abuse the minorities. Again look to the Middle East countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Suadi Arabia, and others for examples of your utopia.

It is odd that you only list Muslim Countries who do not want our Western imperialism.

Why do you not include the USA in that list? since we fit in there better than those you name.

We (the USA) are abusing those entire Countries, and yet you accuse them of abusing some unspoken and unseen minority.

Again I ask what would happen to atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews in your theocratic autocracy?

Everyone would have to adjust to the new reality.

I certainly would not suggest creating a Christian nation based on the mainstream Christianity of today - certainly not.

So far all I am hearing is a revolutionary overthrow to do away with basic rights and liberties to install a dictatorship and enforce your religious will upon all people. Forgive me if I think that sounds like an existential threat to my existence.

I did say a kingdom as in the Kingdom of God, but that does not mean it has to be any type of Dictatorship.

In opposition to the 1st Amendment there would be a State religion which includes all religions, and a State press for all official News, and peaceable assembly must be for peaceable reasons.

After that then we could turn to changing the 2A where weapons are available but under far more control.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

We have seen how your utopia plays out though. There have already been Christian theocratic governments. The Roman Empire, European monarchies, the power of the Catholic Church prior to the Protestant revolution, and Protestant monarchies.

The idea is to learn from the past and do not make the same mistakes again.

Do it right this time.

Those who gain such authoritarian power always abuse the minorities. Again look to the Middle East countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Suadi Arabia, and others for examples of your utopia.

It is odd that you only list Muslim Countries who do not want our Western imperialism.

Why do you not include the USA in that list? since we fit in there better than those you name.

We (the USA) are abusing those entire Countries, and yet you accuse them of abusing some unspoken and unseen minority.

Again I ask what would happen to atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews in your theocratic autocracy?

Everyone would have to adjust to the new reality.

I certainly would not suggest creating a Christian nation based on the mainstream Christianity of today - certainly not.

So far all I am hearing is a revolutionary overthrow to do away with basic rights and liberties to install a dictatorship and enforce your religious will upon all people. Forgive me if I think that sounds like an existential threat to my existence.

I did say a kingdom as in the Kingdom of God, but that does not mean it has to be any type of Dictatorship.

In opposition to the 1st Amendment there would be a State religion which includes all religions, and a State press for all official News, and peaceable assembly must be for peaceable reasons.

After that then we could turn to changing the 2A where weapons are available but under far more control.

And in this fictional "New World Order" of yours, what would the penalty be for being an atheist or other non Christian?

[bluethread]

A government can not truly stop anything. It can only decide how much of it will be in the open market and how much will be in the black market. Thought and speech are no exception.

The 1st Amendment makes so that speech and religion and the Press are an exception, and so the Gov can not do its job of controlling those agencies or activities even when they need to be controlled.

Anyway - no one is going to abolish the 1st Amendment without there being one BIG fight and so we are stuck with the debauchery and the mess.

No it does not. It restricts the government from attempting to stop free speech. I, of course, did not mean that the government can not be stopped, but that the government can not stop something from happening, as long as there is a demand for that activity.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 47 by JP Cusick]

Everyone would have to adjust to the new reality.

What if they refuse?