Capitalism only works...

[2ndRateMind]

If you don't have capital, it won't work for you.

This is because people, even those with masses of money, are loath to part with it. If you don't have money, and need to earn your living, you will be paid the absolute minimum people who do have money can get away with, so as to maximise their profit from your labour.

This is not a 'good' system for the majority of humanity. If it is not good, then it cannot be Christian.

Discuss.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Bust Nak]

This is because people, even those with masses of money, are loath to part with it. If you don't have money, and need to earn your living, you will be paid the absolute minimum people who do have money can get away with, so as to maximise their profit from your labour.

As long as the absolute minimum they can get away with, is enough for a good quality of life, then I would say capitalism is working for you. Having said that, having government regulations is a good way of making sure those with masses of money can't get away with less.

[Rufus21]

If you don't have capital, it won't work for you.

It can work, but most likely you will not become one of the wealthy. It all depends on what your goals in life are.

If it is not good, then it cannot be Christian.

That's false on the face of it, but that discussion belongs in another forum.

[bluethread]

If you don't have capital, it won't work for you.

Everyone has capital. If nothing else one has one's own body.

This is because people, even those with masses of money, are loath to part with it.

This is false. People part with their money all of the time. That is how money works. If one hordes currency, it ceases to be money and becomes a consumer good. Now regarding wealth, that is by definition not horded, but invested in the production of goods and services. That increases the opportunities for those who take part in the production of those goods and services, thus improving their lives.

If you don't have money, and need to earn your living, you will be paid the absolute minimum people who do have money can get away with, so as to maximise their profit from your labour

Well, the absolute minimum is a theoretical extrapolation. What the wise investor does is seek to get the greatest return on investment(ROI). For his part, the producer uses innovation and competition to maximize what he is paid for his abilities. One could say, using your extrapolation, that the producers will always demand the absolute maximum for their services, to maximize their (ROI), and the wealthy will lose their wealth. Of course, neither of these appeals to absolute maximization of ROI are valid. The fact is that the economy is transactional and the price of labor fluctuates based on both quantity and quality, sometimes favoring the investor and other times favoring the producer.

This is not a 'good' system for the majority of humanity. If it is not good, then it cannot be Christian.

This is how all economies work. Attempt have been made to manipulate the economy to control the fluctuating advantages, but all that does is introduce a third party in the transaction, the manipulator. This manipulator is also driven by self interest and will tend to favor the party that best caters to that self interest. So, as long is there is and open market for the exchange of goods and services, the Capitalist model establishment of value based on two party negotiation is the best system for equitably distributing those goods and service.

[bluethread]

As long as the absolute minimum they can get away with, is enough for a good quality of life, then I would say capitalism is working for you. Having said that, having government regulations is a good way of making sure those with masses of money can't get away with less.

"A good quality of life" is entirely the subjective judgement of the consumer. Therefore, regardless of the economy, this can not be assured. That said, third party activities designed to manipulate transactions in favor of those with less currency does not assure a better "quality of life". It only changes the way in which transactions take place as the economy shifts to account for the third party manipulation.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

Unless you are suggesting that shifting economy to account for the third party manipulation is inherently a bad thing, then I do see a problem there. I want it shifted in favor of those with less currency.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 5 by bluethread]

Unless you are suggesting that shifting economy to account for the third party manipulation is inherently a bad thing, then I do see a problem there. I want it shifted in favor of those with less currency.

Whether I think the shifting is a bad thing or not, it is what will happen. The problem with your preference is that it undermines the currency. The market value of a currency is a function of the amount in circulation relative to the amount of goods and services available for trade. If the market value of the currency is reduced as it accumulates, that would result in the decrease in the use of that currency. One would use a different currency, engage in barter or just choose to not engage in the economy beyond a subsistence level. Thus the tendency of such an approach would be to make it so everyone has a minimal amount of currency. If one were required to actually hold currency to establish value, that would crush the economy.

The fact is, that is not how it works. Even without your approach, actual currency is already minimal. What actually happens is that goods and services are designated a fluctuating value based on a currency scale and actual currency is only used when those goods and services change hands. So, manipulating the currency might have a short term effect, primarily on those whose primary asset is currency. However, over the long term, it would have little effect on the actual economy.

[Bust Nak]

Whether I think the shifting is a bad thing or not, it is what will happen. The problem with your preference is that it undermines the currency...

Sure, but it takes time for the market to reach a new equilibrium, and during that time, those with less currency is given a boost. The effect on the actual economy may well be minimal, but boosting the economy is not the point. Wealth redistribution is the point. Given how wonky the distribution of currency is, a slight boost is all it takes to lift some people from long term poverty.

[2ndRateMind]

So, just to add some statistical fuel to the fire, it seems that 1% of the world's population own as much as the remaining 99% put together. (Oxfam). 3 billion people eke out meagre lives on less than $2.50 per day. 1.3 billion people stave off hunger, malnutrition and starvation as best they can on less than $1.25 per day. (Google). 22,000 children a day die of this grinding poverty. (Unicef).

Yet, the world produces enough food calories to feed everyone, and feed them well. And it has enough wealth to ensure that every man, woman and child gets a decent, dignified, contributing, standard of living and way of life.

So, if you want to persuade me that capitalism is 'a good Christian thing', explain to me why this disparity in wealth and life chances is 'a good Christian thing'.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[JP Cusick]

If you don't have capital, it won't work for you.

This is because people, even those with masses of money, are loath to part with it. If you don't have money, and need to earn your living, you will be paid the absolute minimum people who do have money can get away with, so as to maximise their profit from your labour.

This is not a 'good' system for the majority of humanity. If it is not good, then it cannot be Christian.

Discuss.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I say we must try looking at it from the view of God - to then judge what about Capitalism is right or wrong - and God is always righteous.

Americans try to claim Capitalism as a system that we invented, or that we improved it or that we perfected it, and none of that is true.

The economical system in the USA just happened based on the human greed and violent exploitation of the new riches of the new world, and much later we needed to give our exploits a dignified name so it was called as Capitalism.

As such, if we have real faith is God as pulling the strings, then this system of Capitalism was created by God and it is just doing the will of God - whatever that will might be?

I see the selfishness and greed and exploitation's of Capitalism to be ugly and dishonorable, and so maybe that is the message that God wants us all to finally wake up and see this ugly reality and that is why it is shoved into our faces and dominates our lives because it is a harsh message from our Father.

See how it is done in = 1 Corinthians 5:
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So too Capitalism is a destruction of the flesh - and we can believe that the Father God does this to save us on the Judgment Day.