Removing images of Washington and Lee

[Elijah John]

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (AP) — A historic Episcopal church in northern Virginia has decided to relocate two plaques in its sanctuary that honor George Washington and Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee, who worshipped there.

Leaders of Christ Church in Alexandria sent a letter to congregation members last week explaining the decision, and announcements were made during Sunday services.

"The plaques in our sanctuary make some in our presence feel unsafe or unwelcome."

What's especially disturbing is that the congregation broke into applause at the announcement.

For debate, has liberalism once again gone too far? Where does "political correctness" stop? Or in the words of President Trump, "what's next"?

Also, does this reflect the position of the Episcopal church as a whole?

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

[Furrowed Brow]

What's especially disturbing is that the congregation broke into applause at the announcement.

Why? It sounds like it was done with general agreement rather than being forced on them.

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

Depends which kind of people took greater pride in the plaque. If I were black and the people demanding the plaque stay up were clearly racist I would feel unsafe. So it depends on context.

Slightly different examples to illuminate the logic - In the UK I am of the generation that remember how back in the 70s and 80s the Union Jack flag was hijacked by far right groups. To display a union jack was often a sign of far right neo-nazi organisations. It does not mean the union jack was inherently threatening but for a time it became threatening. Excluding times of major sporting events I still tend to assume people who keep a flag in their window are racist and a member of or sympathise with far right groups. There is a meme that goes around social media about being proud to wear a poppy - and people with deep anti immigrant sentiments seems to want to share this meme more often than not. So it is not the poppy itself but who is hacking the meaning of the poppy.

To try and turn the table - If you lived in a two church town and one church proudly commemorated Thomas Gage, Willian Howe, Sir Henry Clinton and Sir Guy Carleton (the four commanders in chiefs of British forces in the North America during the revolutionary wars)...would you feel a tad uncomfortable and maybe prefer the other church? If you were ok with that could you at least imagine some folk would indeed feel uncomfortable and decide that was not the church for them? If you can't imagine how anyone would be made to feel uneasy by that example think up an example of anyone if who commemorated would make you baulk. Malcolm X? Hitler? Karl Marx? If you can find an example that you accept would indeed make you feel uneasy then project that feeling onto people who may have issues with George Washington and General Robert E. Lee.

In British schools the dark side of Oliver Cromwell is often underplayed and his historical significance to the Irish is not appreciated. But to the Irish Cromwell is something of a monster. Maybe Cromwell is a more clear cut example of how an historical figure can be be just an historical figure to one group and hated by another.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Furrowed Brow]

It is disturbing that the congregation applauded this move because it is ridiculous that a picture of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe and unwelcome", except perhaps a British enemy of American independence!

ESPECIALLY, in an historic church where Washington himself once worshiped! Talk about disowning one's history.

In other words, the motives for having the pictures displayed were not racist, they were historic.

Notice I omitted the picture of Lee, from this debate. I did so not because I think Lee was evil, but because a case can be made that he was a rebel against the US for the cause of a faction which defended slavery.

Again, where does it stop with these leftists? Dollar bills? The name of our nation's capital? The name of a northwestern state?

[Rufus21]

has liberalism once again gone too far?

Well, based on that fact that Americans now feel safer in their country, I would say no. And since this is private property that seems to appreciate the separation of church and state, I see nothing wrong. Would it be any different than someone removing a confederate flag from their lawn?

Where does "political correctness" stop?

This was a direct response to the Charlottesville incident, so I guess it stops when groups that are hellbent on murder and genocide stop marching through the streets with weapons. When people can feel safe in their own church, the monuments won't be such a problem.

Also, does this reflect the position of the Episcopal church as a whole?

I doubt it. This seems like an isolated incident. Have other Episcopal churches been doing things like this?

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

Obviously it wasn't Washington that was causing the trouble. Unfortunately, they probably felt like they had to remove both instead of just the traitorous one. Sometimes the bad folks ruin it for the good ones.

"Even though much of the recent national debate has centered around Civil War memorials, church leaders said they thought that it was important for the plaques to be considered together. They noted that both were placed at the same time and visually balance each other in a way that “maintains the symmetry of the church’s sanctuary.�

[Bust Nak]

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

More likely they were preempting the rightists complaining about the political implication of removing Lee but not the Washington.

[Elijah John]

What's especially disturbing is that the congregation broke into applause at the announcement.

Why? It sounds like it was done with general agreement rather than being forced on them.

It is disturbing to see that it was not just misguided leaders, but the general populace of that church who bought into this nonsense.

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

Depends which kind of people took greater pride in the plaque. If I were black and the people demanding the plaque stay up were clearly racist I would feel unsafe. So it depends on context.

This context is American history, not racism. There is no evidence at all that the folks in this church were racist.

Slightly different examples to illuminate the logic - In the UK I am of the generation that remember how back in the 70s and 80s the Union Jack flag was hijacked by far right groups. To display a union jack was often a sign of far right neo-nazi organisations. It does not mean the union jack was inherently threatening but for a time it became threatening. Excluding times of major sporting events I still tend to assume people who keep a flag in their window are racist and a member of or sympathise with far right groups. There is a meme that goes around social media about being proud to wear a poppy - and people with deep anti immigrant sentiments seems to want to share this meme more often than not. So it is not the poppy itself but who is hacking the meaning of the poppy.

So, should the Union Jack be removed in all of it's applications because some project negativity on it?

To try and turn the table - If you lived in a two church town and one church proudly commemorated Thomas Gage, Willian Howe, Sir Henry Clinton and Sir Guy Carleton (the four commanders in chiefs of British forces in the North America during the revolutionary wars)...would you feel a tad uncomfortable and maybe prefer the other church?

So unlikely a scenario in the US that it is really a strawman argument.

If you were ok with that could you at least imagine some folk would indeed feel uncomfortable and decide that was not the church for them? If you can't imagine how anyone would be made to feel uneasy by that example think up an example of anyone if who commemorated would make you baulk. Malcolm X? Hitler? Karl Marx? If you can find an example that you accept would indeed make you feel uneasy then project that feeling onto people who may have issues with George Washington and General Robert E. Lee.

Some extremely and overly sensitive people perhaps. Yes, I can imagine. But should they dictate for the rest of us? How far should accomodation go? The other examples, Malcolm, Hitler and Marx, don't really fit this conversation.

And besides, many like me (judging from the reactions to the story on Yahoo) would feel uncomfortable being around people who would police our thoughts and force-feed us their PC opinions by doing this in the first place. We would feel "unsafe and unwelcome" being around them, and not want to visit their church. Don't we matter?

In British schools the dark side of Oliver Cromwell is often underplayed and his historical significance to the Irish is not appreciated. But to the Irish Cromwell is something of a monster. Maybe Cromwell is a more clear cut example of how an historical figure can be be just an historical figure to one group and hated by another.

Washington did not crusade against blacks, but rather against the British. So the analogy doesn't fit. Now, should all modern day Brits feel unsafe being around images or Washington in this day and age? I doubt it, especially when you are now so welcome in our country, and have been for quite some time.

[Elijah John]

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

More likely they were preempting the rightists complaining about the political implication of removing Lee but not the Washington.

You think this stuff will stop at Lee? There have already been incidents of people calling for the removal of Washington and Jefferson monuments, and in NYC, a statue of Columbus was defaced.

Mayor DeBlasio is considering removing such statues altogether.

[Bust Nak]

You think this stuff will stop at Lee? There have already been incidents of people calling for the removal of Washington and Jefferson monuments, and in NYC, a statue of Columbus was defaced.

Mayor DeBlasio is considering removing such statues altogether.

Well, they were slave owners. Is it so surprising that a few would call for their removal? Contrast that with the movement to remove Lee's statue. I still think removing Washington was to appease the die hard confederate than to appease the those who on the left.

[Elijah John]

has liberalism once again gone too far?

Well, based on that fact that Americans now feel safer in their country, I would say no.

I don't think you speak for Americans. I certainly don't feel safer in this country, outside of these boards, I don't feel safe expressing my opinions here in the liberal, pc Northeast.

And since this is private property that seems to appreciate the separation of church and state, I see nothing wrong. Would it be any different than someone removing a confederate flag from their lawn?

Separate issue. The church did not cite the separation of Church and State, only of not wanting to offend some people. In the process, they offended many.

Where does "political correctness" stop?

This was a direct response to the Charlottesville incident, so I guess it stops when groups that are hellbent on murder and genocide stop marching through the streets with weapons. When people can feel safe in their own church, the monuments won't be such a problem.

That is ridiculous. Even those extremists were not bent on "murder and genocide". They were armed for the confilct, nothing more. As was Antifah. There is no evidence at all they were planning on raiding a Church like the one in question. Why would they? So that congregation had no reason to feel unsafe.

Also, does this reflect the position of the Episcopal church as a whole?

I doubt it. This seems like an isolated incident. Have other Episcopal churches been doing things like this?

I hope you are right, but I don't know, that's why I asked. Other Episcopal churches are not so historic.

Is it reasonable that a plaque of George Washington makes anyone feel "unsafe"?

Obviously it wasn't Washington that was causing the trouble. Unfortunately, they probably felt like they had to remove both instead of just the traitorous one. Sometimes the bad folks ruin it for the good ones.

"Even though much of the recent national debate has centered around Civil War memorials, church leaders said they thought that it was important for the plaques to be considered together. They noted that both were placed at the same time and visually balance each other in a way that “maintains the symmetry of the church’s sanctuary.�

If they were so concerned about visual symmetry, why not replace the picture of Lee with another one of Washington?

[Rufus21]

There have already been incidents of people calling for the removal of Washington and Jefferson monuments, and in NYC, a statue of Columbus was defaced.

Don't let a Christian pastor, a Baptist Minister and a deranged homeless woman get you panicked. Despite what you may have been told, it's really not that big of a movement.

We found two instances where two people unambiguously called for those statues to come down, plus another instance where an interviewer’s question elicited a mixed reply that included the words "certainly it ought to be removed."

Beyond those examples, there is scant evidence of a broader movement to take down statues of Washington and Jefferson, especially not along the lines of the push against Confederate monuments.

http://www.politifact.com/georgia/state ... n-statues/