Oaths: “. . , so help me God� (an alternative follows)

[2Dbunk]

Soon it will be a new year and I’ve been wrestling with the oath of office I’m expected to give in January. My compadres have elected me to lead their post-military detachment this coming year. They know I’m an Atheist but approve of me anyway – the present commander is worried that I won’t say “ . . , so help me God� and has suggested I say what everyone wants to hear rather than what is in my heart. I assured him there would be no problem.

But later I realized that I can’t do the God thing. However, I think I’ve come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone -- if they think-out what I will say:

“ . . , so help me ALL.�

It is a no-brainer that everyone should realize my antecedent to the oath includes God (if “He� exists). This way I am asking everyone in the room, including their God (whoever that might be, and if He or She is present), for their help ‘cause I’m surely going to need it.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this – yes, most of the detachment is fairly religious and more conservative than I am.

[tam]

[Replying to post 1 by 2Dbunk]

Peace to you 2D!


I will respond as a person whose faith is in God and in His Son, Jaheshua.

I would never call upon a generic 'all' for assistance (nor ever advise anyone else to do so); because you don't know who that might then be inviting. All covers well... all. Even the Adversary.

Now, I don't know your detachment; you know them. I don't know if they would be uncomfortable with that alteration or perhaps even think the same as me. My concern is more for you. And the fact that you are trying to make an oath that would not be a lie for you (since you are an atheist), shows that you do understand how words - and oaths - do indeed matter.

Your detachment knows that you are an atheist, and still want you to represent them, so I would hope that they would understand.


(Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.)





Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

Is this one of those ceremonies where you are to repeat what is being said by the person who is swearing you in?

If so, I personally would just say "So help me God". I don't see where this means that you need to believe in a God. All it means is that you are saying what is being asked of you.

It also assures everyone who believes in a God that you would at least have to answer to the God they believe in if you don't live up to the oath that you made.

By the way, if the term "God" means something different to you than it does to a Christian that's perfectly fine. Even the Christians allow for that because they are willing to swear in anyone on their Bible. They have no problem with swearing in a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Wiccan, or in your case, a known atheist. So apparently they have no requirement that you actually believe in the God you are swearing in on.

In fact, you said that you would be ok with swearing in by saying, "So help me All"

Well, if you are an atheist, just look at the term "God" to simply mean "All that exist". And there you have it. Then there is no difference between saying "So help me God" or "So help me All" they would semantically mean the same thing to you.

Who cares what other people think these words mean???

Bottom line for me is that by saying "So help me God" you are not saying that a God exists. All you are saying is that IF a God exists you'd be willing to swear in the name of God.

It's a "willingness" to swear in the name of an imaginary God that is important, not the actual belief in the God.

And by saying "So help me God", you are not saying that you believe that any God actually exists.

So why buck the system if it's going to cause you personal problems?

Just say what society expects you to say under the current rules, and then argue to have the rules changed later.

That's what I would do.

Unless you wan't to potentially sacrifice your own personal position with your organization to become a martyrdom in the movement to have this practice removed from our society.

I personally don't see the point to that. It's just not worth it. You can still continue to argue, vote, and become a vocal activist in the fight for separation between government and religion. But becoming a kamikaze activist during your own promotion ceremony probably isn't going to do much toward separating church and state anyway. Instead it's far more likely to just cause you a bunch of personal headaches.

So my advice would be to just "Drop it".

For about the lofty principles for this event and just say what they want to hear.

It's no skin off your nose, and it's not like you are lying. You are swearing "So help me God". That doesn't mean that any God exists. No big deal. All it means is that you are repeating what someone else wants to hear. Period.

In the end you are either going to uphold your oath or not. So in the end it makes no difference. Just look at Donald Trump. That should tell you everything you need to know. Some people say these words and then don't even stand by their oath anyway.

At least, you'll stand by your oath, right?

I certainly hope so. That should be your only concern anyway actually.

As long as you intend to stand by your oath why should you care what the ceremony requires to you to "swear in" on?

They could be asking you to swear in on a copy of "The Hobbit's Tale", and say "So help me Hobbits". What's the difference? You don't need to believe in Hobbits to do that.

Bottom line: All you really need to do is keep the oath you are swearing to upkeep.

As long as you're confident in that, then don't sweat the small stuff. Why make a big stink where no stink is required?

[Divine Insight]

(Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.)

There you go 2Dbunk. These people who are swearing you in are a bunch of ungodly anti-Christs anyway.

So why not patronize their heathenism?

No harm done.

[Divine Insight]

Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.

I can't help but ask tammy.

What would you do in a similar situation?

Would you refuse to swear on the Bible in a court of law?

Would you refuse to swear on the Bible in a government ceremony?

Finally, have you ever been in a situation where you were asked to swear on the Bible. And if so how did that go?

[tam]

(Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.)

There you go 2Dbunk. These people who are swearing you in are a bunch of ungodly anti-Christs anyway.

I never said that. But perhaps the people will permit 2D to simply allow his yes to mean yes, and his no to mean no. Or maybe something about that will be helpful to 2D, since he is trying to say something that does not bother his conscience, while also hoping not to offend those people he is going to serve.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 6 by tam]

I agree with Tam on oaths. However, I also think that if I signed up to X and X asked me to say Y and I knew this then it behoves me to say Y.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.

I can't help but ask tammy.

What would you do in a similar situation?

I don't think I would be in a similar situation. But if for some reason I were, then I hope I would be truthful.

As a believer, I would not take an oath or swear on God, and I would explain my reasons. I hope I would listen to my Lord in this and in all things. But I would probably do my best to avoid situations requiring that kind of thing to begin with.


There is a reason this world penalizes people for obeying Christ over man. Even if it is just derision and disrespect. But sometimes shunning, sometimes also penalties.

Would you refuse to swear on the Bible in a court of law?

Thankfully, I do not think I would be forced to do so. (Canada) Even if I were asked, I know that the Quakers have made strides with this (I thought in the States as well), and I know the Quakers do not have to swear on the bible in courtrooms. Atheists have perhaps made strides in this arena as well.

If I were asked, I would bring up my Lord's words, and go from there. I hope I would not allow fear of men to cause me to go against His words.

Not that swearing on the bible would mean that I am beholden to tell the truth, and I have no idea why any court of law would think that would be binding on anyone who does not believe the bible is the Word of God (atheist or theist alike) or sacred.

If someone cares about Christ's words that also happen to be written in that book - then shouldn't those words hold sway (let your yes be your yes and your no, your no), rather than some 'swearing on the bible'?

If someone does not care about Christ or what He said, then why would swearing on the bible make them tell the truth anyway?

Would you refuse to swear on the Bible in a government ceremony?

I cannot see where I would be in a government ceremony that requires swearing in, on God. If only for that reason, I think I would avoid such a ceremony.

Finally, have you ever been in a situation where you were asked to swear on the Bible. And if so how did that go?

I have never been in that situation.



Regardless, what I would or would not do is between me and Christ, and what someone else does or does not do is between them and Christ. I am not judging. I just pointed out His words on the matter of swearing and taking oaths.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

(Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.)

There you go 2Dbunk. These people who are swearing you in are a bunch of ungodly anti-Christs anyway.

I never said that. But perhaps the people will permit 2D to simply allow his yes to mean yes, and his no to mean no. Or maybe something about that will be helpful to 2D, since he is trying to say something that does not bother his conscience, while also hoping not to offend those people he is going to serve.

Well, if it's anything like swearing into public office what usually happens is that the person who is swearing you in states aloud what it is your are supposed to say. And then you repeat what it was that they said. And at the end they typically say, "So help me God", and you are supposed to repeat those same words.

This wouldn't be a problem if you can just make up your own stuff. You could just end by saying, "I swear to uphold this oath". And you'd be done.

But often when you are sworn in you are repeating after the person who is swearing you in.

If you don't want to have to say specific words, it's probably best to work that out ahead of time with the person who will be swearing you in and ask if there are alternative words they could use for that part of the process.

Whether that person can offer alternative words or not would be the question.

Otherwise when you get to that part of the ceremony you would either need to repeat "So help me God", or you would need to say something different from what the person swearing you in had said, and I'm not sure how well that would go over live and unexpected.

This problem actually has far more to do with social conventions than with religion.

In fact, tammy, if you claim that it's against the teachings of Jesus to make an oath of any kind, then you wouldn't even be able to take the oath at all. Never mind the final words "so help me God".

What would you do in court if they ask you to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Would you just say, "Yes"?

Is so, then you have just sworn to an oath anyway.

To say "yes" is to agree to this oath.

So if you agree to do anything by saying "yes", then you have just sworn to an oath to do it. Unless your "yes" is meaningless.

~~~~~~

By the way, I don't think 2Dbunk has any problem making the oath. It seems that the only problem would be in ending the oath by saying, "So help me God". He even offered to say, "So help me ALL".

So making the oath isn't the problem here.

[tam]

(Christ actually taught us NOT to swear oaths - Matthew 5:35-37 - even though courtrooms and political/military offices require people to swear upon God or upon bibles, etc, in opposition to Christ. He says instead to allow your yes to mean yes, and your no to mean no, simple as that.)

There you go 2Dbunk. These people who are swearing you in are a bunch of ungodly anti-Christs anyway.

I never said that. But perhaps the people will permit 2D to simply allow his yes to mean yes, and his no to mean no. Or maybe something about that will be helpful to 2D, since he is trying to say something that does not bother his conscience, while also hoping not to offend those people he is going to serve.

Well, if it's anything like swearing into public office what usually happens is that the person who is swearing you in states aloud what it is your are supposed to say. And then you repeat what it was that they said. And at the end they typically say, "So help me God", and you are supposed to repeat those same words.

This wouldn't be a problem if you can just make up your own stuff. You could just end by saying, "I swear to uphold this oath". And you'd be done.

But often when you are sworn in you are repeating after the person who is swearing you in.

If you don't want to have to say specific words, it's probably best to work that out ahead of time with the person who will be swearing you in and ask if there are alternative words they could use for that part of the process.

Whether that person can offer alternative words or not would be the question.

Otherwise when you get to that part of the ceremony you would either need to repeat "So help me God", or you would need to say something different from what the person swearing you in had said, and I'm not sure how well that would go over live and unexpected.

Agreed.

In fact, tammy, if you claim that it's against the teachings of Jesus to make an oath of any kind, then you wouldn't even be able to take the oath at all. Never mind the final words "so help me God".

What would you do in court if they ask you to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Would you just say, "Yes"?

Yes.

No swearing to God, or on God, or on the Bible, or on anything at all.

Here, I'll copy the passage out for context:

Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor should you swear by your head, for you cannot make a single hair white or black. Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one.

Is so, then you have just sworn to an oath anyway.

To say "yes" is to agree to this oath.

No, that would simply be saying, "yes, I will tell the truth".

By the way, I don't think 2Dbunk has any problem making the oath. It seems that the only problem would be in ending the oath by saying, "So help me God". He even offered to say, "So help me ALL".

Yes, I understood that.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy