Can a leader (e.g. President of the United States) order the death of innocents (i.e., non-combatants) in order to achieve a higher good, or avoid a greater evil, without moral culpability? Was, for instance, president Truman justified in ordering the bombing of Hiroshima?
Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?
Just War?
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- Wootah
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Re: Just War?
Post #11Do tell us what you would have done. Be explicit. Tell us how many Allied soldiers you estimate would have been killed. Don't just hand wave but spell out and include what you think the cost of your alternative would have been.JJ50 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]
There is never any excuse for dropping a nuclear bomb on a nation. Truman was well out of order.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image ."
Re: Just War?
Post #12You make very good points, Mithrae. The decision to use such weapons was probably preceded with agonising arguments. If the object was to end the war, that was achieved, horrendously, but achieved nonetheless.Mithrae wrote:
Without having been the one there and making them, I don't think there's likely to be any easy decisions in war (in fact if I'd been there odds are I would be even more certain that there aren't!), and I don't think the mere fact that this was an unconventional form of warfare is enough to conclusively settle the question. Ultimately what matters to my mind is numbers of lives destroyed, in that and in future decades, and I really have no idea whether or not the bombs were the better or worse options.
I'm not sure where the Christian God fits into this but presumably he offered Truman no advice.
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Re: Just War?
Post #13Keep in mind that this thread attempts to justify the actions of an omnipotent God, not just Truman.Wootah wrote:Do tell us what you would have done. Be explicit. Tell us how many Allied soldiers you estimate would have been killed. Don't just hand wave but spell out and include what you think the cost of your alternative would have been.JJ50 wrote: [Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]
There is never any excuse for dropping a nuclear bomb on a nation. Truman was well out of order.
Other people are already offering 'justification' for Truman's actions by suggesting that bringing an abrupt end to the war was the 'justification'.
Even if we allow this to be justification for Truman (an inept human who is far from omniscient and omnipotent), how would this justify a supposedly omniscience omnipotent God doing the same thing?
The other problem is that Truman clearly found himself stuck in this situation due to historical events that he clearly had no control over.
There could be no excuse for an omniscient omnipotent God to have ever allowed things to get so far out of control that the God would need to turn to such desperate means to end a situation he should have never let get that far out of control in the first place.
Finally, even if we graciously grant Truman a verdict of "justification" on the basis that he was just trying to end a war, does that alone make the action "moral"?
I think not.
Doing something immoral out of desperation hardly makes it moral.
We might claims that we allow this to be "justification", but even so all we would be doing in that case is justifying an "immoral" act, by claiming that in performing this immoral act a war could be brought to a quick end.
All this does is condone immoral actions as long as it can be shown that they produce some sort of positive benefit.
But should this truly be the basis of morality? A morality based on the idea that immoral actions are ok as long as they result in something positive?
That seems to be the crux of the argument here.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
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Re: Just War?
Post #14Christian doctrine claims no one is innocent and all are under judgement...liamconnor wrote:Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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Re: Just War?
Post #15Patently untrue. Truman's angst over the whole thing is well documented.liamconnor wrote: Truman felt no regret in his decision to bomb Hiroshima. The OP is about ethics and evaluating ethical acts.
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Re: Just War?
Post #16God doesn't (seem to) have to follow his own rules. Comparing God to any human is futile - like comparing apples to peaches - similar in a couple ways but entirely different.liamconnor wrote: Can a leader (e.g. President of the United States) order the death of innocents (i.e., non-combatants) in order to achieve a higher good, or avoid a greater evil, without moral culpability? Was, for instance, president Truman justified in ordering the bombing of Hiroshima?
Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?
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Re: Just War?
Post #17This is correct. The closest thing we have to a proper comparison is the right for a human to direct one geneticallly engineered bacterium to attack another genetically engineered bacterium. Humans apply a diferent standard to themselve than they do to a bacterium.imhereforyou wrote:
God doesn't (seem to) have to follow his own rules. Comparing God to any human is futile - like comparing apples to peaches - similar in a couple ways but entirely different.
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Re: Just War?
Post #18Kenisaw wrote:Patently untrue. Truman's angst over the whole thing is well documented.liamconnor wrote: Truman felt no regret in his decision to bomb Hiroshima. The OP is about ethics and evaluating ethical acts.
Good. I spoke hastily when I wrote this. Regret, yes. The man was not cold. But moral regret? No. He believed till the end he had done the right thing; had achieved the greater good.
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Re: Just War?
Post #19I don't understand why a deity would need humans to do its killing for it in the first place.liamconnor wrote: Can a leader (e.g. President of the United States) order the death of innocents (i.e., non-combatants) in order to achieve a higher good, or avoid a greater evil, without moral culpability? Was, for instance, president Truman justified in ordering the bombing of Hiroshima?
Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?
What I do understand is how humans can get other humans to do terrible things in the names of the gods.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Truman could be argued for being justified as well as being un-justified (I'm doing neither here). Gods on the other hand would not need humans to do their killing. If they want death and destruction, they could do it themselves. Leaving it up to humans would be a mistake any thinking god would not do IMO.
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I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
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Re: Just War?
Post #20Of course this is the case.ttruscott wrote:Christian doctrine claims no one is innocent and all are under judgement...liamconnor wrote:Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?
Who would buy the medicine without first being convinced that they are sick?
Snake oil sales 101.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb