Just War?

[liamconnor]

Can a leader (e.g. President of the United States) order the death of innocents (i.e., non-combatants) in order to achieve a higher good, or avoid a greater evil, without moral culpability? Was, for instance, president Truman justified in ordering the bombing of Hiroshima?

Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?

[liamconnor]

God doesn't (seem to) have to follow his own rules. Comparing God to any human is futile - like comparing apples to peaches - similar in a couple ways but entirely different.

This is correct. The closest thing we have to a proper comparison is the right for a human to direct one geneticallly engineered bacterium to attack another genetically engineered bacterium. Humans apply a diferent standard to themselve than they do to a bacterium.

Please note, I am misquoted here. I believe the quoting mechanism has been misused. No one's fault.

[imhereforyou]

God doesn't (seem to) have to follow his own rules. Comparing God to any human is futile - like comparing apples to peaches - similar in a couple ways but entirely different.

This is correct. The closest thing we have to a proper comparison is the right for a human to direct one geneticallly engineered bacterium to attack another genetically engineered bacterium. Humans apply a diferent standard to themselve than they do to a bacterium.

Which begs the question: Does God have his own laws/rules or none?
Going further, if he has rules/laws, how can we hold him accountable for anything or is it simply a "do what I say not what I do" mantra?

[Kenisaw]

Truman felt no regret in his decision to bomb Hiroshima. The OP is about ethics and evaluating ethical acts.

Patently untrue. Truman's angst over the whole thing is well documented.

Good. I spoke hastily when I wrote this. Regret, yes. The man was not cold. But moral regret? No. He believed till the end he had done the right thing; had achieved the greater good.

https://www.stripes.com/news/special-re ... t-1.360308

I agree.

[bluethread]

God doesn't (seem to) have to follow his own rules. Comparing God to any human is futile - like comparing apples to peaches - similar in a couple ways but entirely different.

This is correct. The closest thing we have to a proper comparison is the right for a human to direct one geneticallly engineered bacterium to attack another genetically engineered bacterium. Humans apply a diferent standard to themselve than they do to a bacterium.

Which begs the question: Does God have his own laws/rules or none?
Going further, if he has rules/laws, how can we hold him accountable for anything or is it simply a "do what I say not what I do" mantra?

How do bacteria hold us accountable? Do we simply apply the "do what I say not what I do" to bacteria?

[imhereforyou]

God doesn't (seem to) have to follow his own rules. Comparing God to any human is futile - like comparing apples to peaches - similar in a couple ways but entirely different.

This is correct. The closest thing we have to a proper comparison is the right for a human to direct one geneticallly engineered bacterium to attack another genetically engineered bacterium. Humans apply a diferent standard to themselve than they do to a bacterium.

Which begs the question: Does God have his own laws/rules or none?
Going further, if he has rules/laws, how can we hold him accountable for anything or is it simply a "do what I say not what I do" mantra?

How do bacteria hold us accountable? Do we simply apply the "do what I say not what I do" to bacteria?

We can't totally control bacteria; we can't make it from nothing.
God can make everything from nothing so the comparison here seems less than appropriate.

[Mithrae]

How do bacteria hold us accountable? Do we simply apply the "do what I say not what I do" to bacteria?

Your reasoning seems to be fallacious since we are not bacteria. Unless all you are advocating is a 'might makes right' philosophy? That the question has nothing to do with the nature of the subjects, only the relative power of the perpetrators?

The Tanakh seems to forbid wanton destruction even of unfeeling trees during wartime, allowing the use only of so many as are required for the construction of seige equipment (Deut. 20:19-20). One of the most fundamental of all biblical commandments - the Noachide law forbidding consumption of meat with the blood/life still in it - is perhaps best understood as a prohibition against preserving meat by removing and eating only one leg at a time from a living animal. The notion that we, being 'greater' than the other creatures of the earth, needn't concern ourselves with their ethical treatment seems to be fundamentally unbiblical; even the land itself is said to deserve its 'rest' every seventh year!

Bacteria may not experience any suffering, and domestic animals well treated and humanely killed may live as well or better than their wild counterparts - at least before our era of excessive meat consumption and unsustainably large scale farming practices - while human beings are capable of recognizing more subtle injustices. Not that genocide is particularly subtle! There seems to be no very obvious reason why a given treatment of humans would be abhorrent if done by their fellow man but somehow holy if done by a superior alien race or by a deity, let alone when done by their fellow man claiming to have been commissioned by a deity.

Comparing yourself to a bacterium seems to miss the point entirely as to what 'good' and 'evil' actually are unless, as I say, it's just a might makes right philosophy that you're promoting.

[Tcg]

Likewise, can a good deity (like YHWH) order the death of innocents (like the Canaanites) with immunity if it is ordered with to avert a great evil or achieve a greater good?

A good deity? Like YHWH? Your must be kidding. Present a good deity, which YHWH clearly isn't, and then this may be an interesting question. As it stands, it is nothing but evidence of Stockholm syndrome.

Hopefully you'll be rescued from your oppressor sometime soon. You'll of course have to give up the comfort being on the team of the biggest bully ever devised by human minds. Given that this non-existent being gives you so much comfort, I doubt you'll ever have the courage to face the reality of the evil your non-existent god practices.

[Tcg]

God can make everything from nothing so the comparison here seems less than appropriate.

Sounds good, of course many unsupportable claims sound so. All you need to do is provide irrefutable evidence that your claim is true. Not pretzel logic, facts.

I'll eagerly await your presentation of this irrefutable evidence. Not pretzel logic, facts.

[Mithrae]

Hopefully you'll be rescued from your oppressor sometime soon. You'll of course have to give up the comfort being on the team of the biggest bully ever devised by human minds. Given that this non-existent being gives you so much comfort, I doubt you'll ever have the courage to face the reality of the evil your non-existent god practices.

All you need to do is provide irrefutable evidence that your claim is true. Not pretzel logic, facts.

For example emotional claims that genocide against the Canaanites was "evil" would clearly be begging the question in light of this thread topic.

[Tcg]

For example emotional claims that genocide against the Canaanites was "evil" would clearly be begging the question in light of this thread topic.

You are asking me to support the fact that genocide is evil? Let's start with this question: "Are you human?"