Does evangelical support for Trump create a crisis for Christianity?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cn2gnaekoQ
Are his policies and personal character consistent with Christian values?
Related to this, should a Christian who wants to bear witness for the risen Christ sell all he has, give to the poor, and follow Jesus?
Or should he or she accumulate wealth to show he is blessed by God?
Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?
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- Savant
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Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?
Post #31[Replying to post 30 by RightReason]
You've shown me that video before, my original respond can be found here. I think the baby deserves protection at or around 24 weeks into the pregnancy, or earlier with the woman's blessing. May I suggest that we return to that thread, abortion is a bit off topic here.
You've shown me that video before, my original respond can be found here. I think the baby deserves protection at or around 24 weeks into the pregnancy, or earlier with the woman's blessing. May I suggest that we return to that thread, abortion is a bit off topic here.
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Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?
Post #32[Replying to Bust Nak]
May we do whatever we want with anything that is on our private property? May we attack or kill innocent people who are passing through or seeking refuge? No, we must respect the rights of other people.
May a pregnant woman ingest drugs that she knows will cause her child to be deformed or disabled? Clearly not.[3] And if knowingly harming the child is wrong, killing her (through abortion) is even worse. Bodily autonomy is important, but there are obvious limits to that autonomy when someone else's body is also involved.
The right to control one's body does not justify the intentional killing of others. Nor does it nullify our obligations to the youngest and most vulnerable members of the human family.
Indeed, the autonomy argument turns common sense and justice upside down.
https://www.mccl.org/post/2016/12/19/my ... y-abortion
Also, over 99% of the cases of abortion are not performed due to rape, meaning the father and mother willingly engaged in an activity that caused (and is biologically ordered to) the creation of a new, dependent human being. Well, congratulations! You are now parents. That is science/biology/the way the world works. Along with being parents comes parental responsibility. No parent is permitted to starve or kill their child.
You argument is basically saying if a woman is pregnant the baby growing inside of her is only protected if the baby is wanted. The very same baby is in there at the very same moment in time and is celebrated and protected if he is wanted and killed and discarded if he is not. Again, it brings us back to exactly what happened under Hitler. One human being got to decide/determine if another innocent human being has the right to life. What a horrific position to hold. May no one ever decide you are not worthy of protection – that you don’t matter.
So like I said, and like the video suggests your view/position is illogical as well as tyrannical. Your argument is the illogical bodily autonomy argument. Again, one human’s rights end where another human’s rights begin.You've shown me that video before, my original respond can be found here. I think the baby deserves protection at or around 24 weeks into the pregnancy, or earlier with the woman's blessing.
May we do whatever we want with anything that is on our private property? May we attack or kill innocent people who are passing through or seeking refuge? No, we must respect the rights of other people.
May a pregnant woman ingest drugs that she knows will cause her child to be deformed or disabled? Clearly not.[3] And if knowingly harming the child is wrong, killing her (through abortion) is even worse. Bodily autonomy is important, but there are obvious limits to that autonomy when someone else's body is also involved.
The right to control one's body does not justify the intentional killing of others. Nor does it nullify our obligations to the youngest and most vulnerable members of the human family.
Indeed, the autonomy argument turns common sense and justice upside down.
https://www.mccl.org/post/2016/12/19/my ... y-abortion
Also, over 99% of the cases of abortion are not performed due to rape, meaning the father and mother willingly engaged in an activity that caused (and is biologically ordered to) the creation of a new, dependent human being. Well, congratulations! You are now parents. That is science/biology/the way the world works. Along with being parents comes parental responsibility. No parent is permitted to starve or kill their child.
You argument is basically saying if a woman is pregnant the baby growing inside of her is only protected if the baby is wanted. The very same baby is in there at the very same moment in time and is celebrated and protected if he is wanted and killed and discarded if he is not. Again, it brings us back to exactly what happened under Hitler. One human being got to decide/determine if another innocent human being has the right to life. What a horrific position to hold. May no one ever decide you are not worthy of protection – that you don’t matter.
Sure. Whatever you think.May I suggest that we return to that thread, abortion is a bit off topic here.
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Post #33
The abortion/right to choose issue is off topic here except as it relates to the argument that Trump support is contrary to Christian values. Given Trump's past personally and publicly, it is obvious he has take the 'no choice' position solely to pander to his base which is largely white, racist, and conservative evangelical.
But Christian opinion on the issue is divided fairly evenly on the issue, so I suggest the abortion issue has little bearing on the topic. Catholics are roughly divided evenly on the issue with 48% saying abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
Only the most conservative Xtians are adamantly opposed, with only 18%, 27% and 33% of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Evangelical Protestants, respectively believing abortion should be legal.
The real question, considering the topic, is why would a Presidential candidate who in every other way repeatedly violates every Christian principle when it comes to sex and personal moral conduct, be publicly opposed to abortion.
I suggest it is solely because he is pandering to his base which tends to be not so much Christian as conservative on racial equality, civil rights, women's rights as well as being less educated.
But Christian opinion on the issue is divided fairly evenly on the issue, so I suggest the abortion issue has little bearing on the topic. Catholics are roughly divided evenly on the issue with 48% saying abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
Only the most conservative Xtians are adamantly opposed, with only 18%, 27% and 33% of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and Evangelical Protestants, respectively believing abortion should be legal.
The real question, considering the topic, is why would a Presidential candidate who in every other way repeatedly violates every Christian principle when it comes to sex and personal moral conduct, be publicly opposed to abortion.
I suggest it is solely because he is pandering to his base which tends to be not so much Christian as conservative on racial equality, civil rights, women's rights as well as being less educated.
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Post #34
[Replying to Danmark]
Abortion is about as racist as it gets. More black children are killed from abortion than white children, which was exactly Planned Parenthood’s founder Margaret Sanger’s mission.
Abortion is also sexist, as more girl babies are aborted than boy. This was especially common in countries like China. Where is the outcry from the feminists?
Planned Parenthood does not care about women, children, or the poor. They are their cash cow.
So, sorry your beef against Trump simply doesn’t hold up. Regardless of his personal life, his efforts to uphold life should be commended and any politician who supports abortion ought to be vehemently opposed by Christians due to the grave immorality of the taking the life of the most vulnerable among us.
Or maybe he accurately believes slaughter of the unborn IS the human rights issue of our times and is a grave evil beneath the values of our nation and God.The abortion/right to choose issue is off topic here except as it relates to the argument that Trump support is contrary to Christian values. Given Trump's past personally and publicly, it is obvious he has take the 'no choice' position solely to pander to his base which is largely white, racist, and conservative evangelical.
Abortion is about as racist as it gets. More black children are killed from abortion than white children, which was exactly Planned Parenthood’s founder Margaret Sanger’s mission.
Abortion is also sexist, as more girl babies are aborted than boy. This was especially common in countries like China. Where is the outcry from the feminists?
Planned Parenthood does not care about women, children, or the poor. They are their cash cow.
Again, like what. I do not think is position or policies on immigration are anti-Christian. In fact, they are virtually the same policies previous presidents have taken, but were not called racist for. Is his personal moral life questionable? You bet! As was lots of previous presidents. Bill Clinton ring a bell? How about JFK?The real question, considering the topic, is why would a Presidential candidate who in every other way repeatedly violates every Christian principle
So, sorry your beef against Trump simply doesn’t hold up. Regardless of his personal life, his efforts to uphold life should be commended and any politician who supports abortion ought to be vehemently opposed by Christians due to the grave immorality of the taking the life of the most vulnerable among us.
I am pro woman, pro equality, and college educated and I stand by my vote for Trump because he was the lesser of two evils at the time and his policies and programs are much more likely to help women, children, the oppressed, the poor, and minorities. The facts already show this. I submit someone who accuses conservative Christians of being racists is actually engaging in their own form of anti-Christian bigotry.I suggest it is solely because he is pandering to his base which tends to be not so much Christian as conservative on racial equality, civil rights, women's rights as well as being less educated.
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Post #35
[Replying to post 34 by RightReason]
Christianity has a long and despicable history of racism and sexism.
http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gab_racism.htm
Men telling women what they con do with their bodies is about as sexist as it gets. No one can honestly claim to be for women's rights and deny women the right to choose and to make decisions about her own body. Forcing her to be an incubator is the supreme sexism.
Christianity has a long and despicable history of racism and sexism.
http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gab_racism.htm
Men telling women what they con do with their bodies is about as sexist as it gets. No one can honestly claim to be for women's rights and deny women the right to choose and to make decisions about her own body. Forcing her to be an incubator is the supreme sexism.
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Post #36
[Replying to Danmark]
Racism and sexism have been alive and well in the secular world throughout history. It was Christians who fought for the end to slavery.Christianity has a long and despicable history of racism and sexism.
But it isn’t just about the woman’s body, is it? Another body is involved. How sexist to not fight for girl in the womb. Not to mention, how sexist abortion is to the pregnant woman as well. The research shows women regret their abortions. They say they wanted to keep their baby, but pressure from boyfriends, husbands, parents, and even peers made them feel they had no choice. Abortion hurts women.Men telling women what they con do with their bodies is about as sexist as it gets.
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Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?
Post #37It's there now.RightReason wrote:Sure. Whatever you think.May I suggest that we return to that thread, abortion is a bit off topic here.
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Post #38
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[Replying to post 33 by Danmark]
Moderator Comment
Kindly avoid using the term 'racist' when referring to Trump supporters.
Please review the Rules.
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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
[Replying to post 33 by Danmark]
Moderator Comment
Kindly avoid using the term 'racist' when referring to Trump supporters.
Please review the Rules.
______________
Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
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Post #39
Interesting article in "Vanity Fair":
Even Christian evangelicals are saying Christian evangelicals are betraying their Christian Values by supporting this slime ball and unindicted multiple felon.
[center]Former Evangelical Republican warns the religious right's support of Trump will harm Christianity[/center]
"A former evangelical Republican warned that the religious right’s embrace of President Donald Trump’s “moral freak show� will cost Christianity dearly in the future.
Peter Wehner, a conservative Christian who served three administrations in the White House, remains baffled by the unwavering support for Trump by fellow evangelicals, and he wrote for The Atlantic that their political hypocrisy would poison their religious movement."
https://www.salon.com/2019/07/08/former ... y_partner/
Trump wasn't satisfied with this reversal so he also walked back his absurd comment that he tried to stop them (he waited 13 seconds during the chant before he started talking again) so he came up with another contradiction, claiming he couldn't hear what they said.[center]TRUMP REVERSES AGAIN, CALLS RACIST RALLYGOERS “INCREDIBLE PATRIOTS�
[/center]
Less than a day after telling reporters that he seemingly disavowed his rallygoers' offensive “send her back� chant directed at Representative Ilhan Omar—despite clearly goading it on—President Donald Trump walked back his comments Friday, revealing to no one's surprise that he's actually totally cool with the racist comments after all.
....
__ Alison Durkee
Even Christian evangelicals are saying Christian evangelicals are betraying their Christian Values by supporting this slime ball and unindicted multiple felon.
[center]Former Evangelical Republican warns the religious right's support of Trump will harm Christianity[/center]
"A former evangelical Republican warned that the religious right’s embrace of President Donald Trump’s “moral freak show� will cost Christianity dearly in the future.
Peter Wehner, a conservative Christian who served three administrations in the White House, remains baffled by the unwavering support for Trump by fellow evangelicals, and he wrote for The Atlantic that their political hypocrisy would poison their religious movement."
https://www.salon.com/2019/07/08/former ... y_partner/
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Re: Is the support for Trump contrary to Christian values?
Post #40No. I do not think Trump has in any way demonstrated a belief in God. All he has done is to assert it, given that any other course of action would be political suicide.Danmark wrote: Does evangelical support for Trump create a crisis for Christianity?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... cn2gnaekoQ
No. Maybe, sometime, US citizens will realise this. I hope, sooner rather than later, but I am not holding my breath.Danmark wrote:Are his policies and personal character consistent with Christian values?
I think there is a happy medium, such that if all the world's wealth were equitably distributed amongst all the world's people, (net worth some $33k, net income some $17k) no one would hunger and starve, etc. Accumulating more than this seems to me to be inappropriate for anyone who would claim to be a Christian, since that would deprive others of their own 'fair share'.Danmark wrote:Related to this, should a Christian who wants to bear witness for the risen Christ sell all he has, give to the poor, and follow Jesus?
Or should he or she accumulate wealth to show he is blessed by God?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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