How Arrogant and Selfish have Americans Become?

[Divine Insight]

A lot of Americans are protesting government orders that everyone needs to wear a mask when they go into a public space like a retail store.

This order is not necessarily to protect the people wearing the mask, but rather to protect everyone from each other.

Why would any American refuse to abide by such a health-related order?

To refuse to wear a mask is an extremely arrogant and selfish thing to do.

Also, if we want to talk about freedoms, what about the store owners and their employees? Shouldn't they have the freedom to demand that any customers entering their stores must wear a mask?

Americans seem to have become so obsessed with the idea of freedom that they are basically demanding the freedom to do stupid things.

Besides, haven't Americans already lost are freedom to harm other people, and even ourselves. Isn't it mandatory by law that people just wear a seat belt in a car or risk being fined?

Isn't it already the law that all drivers must have insurance lest they can also be fined for driving without insurance. Again, this is for the greater good, not to just protect the individual driver.

I'm becoming ashamed of being an American. My fellow Americans are displaying too much arrogance and selfishness. It's basically disgusting. I used to think that Americans were better than this. But apparently not.

What causes Americans to be so selfish and ignorant? Have Americans truly become "dumbed-down" over the years? It seems to me that Americans used to be better than this at one point in time.

Are we witnessing the fall of America right before our very eyes?

Americans refusing to look out for, or even care about their fellow citizens. A totally selfish America where all Americans care about is getting their own way like a bunch of selfish spoiled brats.

I'm embarrassed to be an American anymore.

Moreover, as an American I'm calling this ignorance and selfish behavior out. I totally disapprove of it and think it's childish and irresponsible.

As an American I'm calling out those who are so selfish and ignorant to not do their part in this national pandemic. I think they should be arrested and hauled off to jail. That'll teach them to quit being so selfish and immature.

[Elijah John]

Why would any American refuse to abide by such a health-related order?.

Is this a rhetorical question? Or is it your question for debate where you would welcome some answers?

Do you think it's possible government officials are over-reacting, just a bit?

Have you considered that less Draconian measures would be just as, if not more effective? Like continued social distancing? Requiring masks only for those who are symptomatic or have tested positive? And allowing common sense spacing to cover the rest? Or adopting the Swedish model, instead of the authoritarian Chinese model?

Or focusing attention and resources on the most vulnerable, like those in nursing homes?

Are you considerate of those for whom wearing a mask would be dangerous and inhibit their breathing? Like people with heart or lung conditions?

Whatever happened to the maxim "to dissent is patriotic"? Or does that only apply to dissenting from President Trump, and not tyrannical Governors and local authorities?

Do you really want those who disagree with you on this to go to jail? Or are you just blowing off steam. Remember, there are plenty of people of good will who are on the opposite side of this issue, and are just as passionate as you are.

It's ironic. Actual criminals are being released for concern they don't get covid 19, and here you are (and others) arguing that law-abiding citizens who protest legally should go to jail.

And for the record, I work at a hotel where I wear a mask and spend a good portion of my day disinfecting surfaces. So I will not be lectured or shamed on this matter.

Also it should be noted that many of the protestors at various state houses are protesting the shut down of the economy. Economic collapse ruins lives as well.

Don't all of these politicians have a balancing act to consider? And a duty to consider the whole picture?

[Divine Insight]

Is this a rhetorical question? Or is it your question for debate where you would welcome some answers?

Sure we can debate it.

Do you think it's possible government officials are over-reacting, just a bit?

If that's the case why not assemble a civil group to propose to the government better options. Why show up with guns like an angry militia mob?

If violence the only thing people can understand anymore?

Have you considered that less Draconian measures would be just as, if not more effective?

This angry mob group of protesters didn't appear to have anything intellectual to offer. All they were doing was demanding their freedom to act like idiots.

Like continued social distancing?

The government was already proposing this. No need to protest against what's already being proposed.

Requiring masks only for those who are symptomatic or have tested positive?

Why would we do that? We already know that asymptomatic people can carry the virus and spread it. So everyone should be wearing a mask, if nothing more than a social courtesy to their fellow Americans.

And allowing common sense spacing to cover the rest?

6-feet is already pretty close. In fact, most people are violating the 6-foot rule already. I personally try to keep at least 10-feet away from strangers when possible. Obviously that's not always possible.

But hanging out in mob protests where people are standing shoulder-to-shoulder is nothing short of a display of complete stupidity. And most of those not even wearing masks.

Or adopting the Swedish model, instead of the authoritarian Chinese model?

Or focusing attention and resources on the most vulnerable, like those in nursing homes?

Protecting the most vulnerable is what Sweden is already doing. That's included in part of their plan.

Are you considerate of those for whom wearing a mask would be dangerous and inhibit their breathing? Like people with heart or lung conditions?

How silly is that? People who already have heart and lung conditions shouldn't be out in an environment where they need to be wearing a mask. You certainly don't need to wear a mask at home.

Also, the way the law is currently set up all you need is the appearance of wearing a mask. Just a flimsy scarf over your mouth and nose is all that is required to pacify the government. This is just to protect others from any coughing or sneezing you might do.

A scarf isn't going to restrict your breathing, Neither is it going to protect you from inhaling any airborne virus particles.

So there really isn't even any excuse for those who have heart or lung conditions to not wear as mask since they aren't required to wear and "air-tight" mask that might prevent them from inhaling the virus. All it needs to do is serve a a barrier for particles should they cough or sneeze. Or even when they simply speak. It's there to protect the people they are speaking to. Not to protect them, unless they choose to wear a mask of that caliber.

Whatever happened to the maxim "to dissent is patriotic"? Or does that only apply to dissenting from President Trump, and not tyrannical Governors and local authorities?

Again, why act like angry idiots with guns? Why not just form a community group who peacefully presents their proposal for better solutions to the government.

We aren't seeing that at all. All we see are idiots who just want the whole thing to go away. They just want to ignore the virus entirely.

Do you really want those who disagree with you on this to go to jail?

If they come to my door carrying AK-47's yes! I consider that to be an active threat. Why should they need an AK-47 just to ask me to consider other options?

Or are you just blowing off steam. Remember, there are plenty of people of good will who are on the opposite side of this issue, and are just as passionate as you are.

If there are people on that side of the issue of "Good Will" then they too should be renounce those who brought the weapons of war to a peaceful protest.

And again, where is there any intelligent proposal being made by these so-called people of "Good Will"? All I see are people refusing to address the heath issue entirely.

It's ironic. Actual criminals are being released for concern they don't get covid 19, and here you are (and others) arguing that law-abiding citizens who protest legally should go to jail.

If angry people came to your door yelling at you and carrying AK-47's I would imagine you'd probably call the cops too and expect the law to protect you from these insane idiots.

I doubt that you would give a hoot about their rights as they were being dragged off to jail. More than likely you'd be applauding the police for protecting your right to not be threatened by angry thugs who are carrying weapons of war.

And for the record, I work at a hotel where I wear a mask and spend a good portion of my day disinfecting surfaces. So I will not be lectured or shamed on this matter.

So then why are you standing up for the protesters when you are following the health advice of the medical experts?

If you're doing it, why can't they?

You seem to be defending the protesters while doing precisely as your government asked you do to.

Also it should be noted that many of the protestors at various state houses are protesting the shut down of the economy. Economic collapse ruins lives as well.

Everyone would love to open the economy back up. Without exception. By the way, I agree that the governor's could and should be handling things differently. I personally believe there are better ways to handle the situation. So why not form a group and take those proposals to the governors instead of taking AK-47s.

Just look at how stupid those guys looked. What are they going to do with their AK-47s. Start murdering governors? Those weapons were ridiculous. They couldn't dare use them lest they would indeed be hauled off to jail on charges of murder. That's how stupid those guys are.

Instead of carrying the AK-47s they may as well have been carrying signs saying "Look at me! I"m a stupid idiot!"

Don't all of these politicians have a balancing act to consider? And a duty to consider the whole picture?

I absolutely agree with this. So why not take better suggestions to the politicians instead of threatening them with AK-47s that could clearly never be legally used.

Who are they going to shoot?

Not only this, but the mere presence of these weapons could potentially spark a horrific incident. What if within that group just one of those idiot's guns just happens to accidentally go off and kill a police officer or politician. That accident could have potentially triggered a much greater exchange of gunfire between police and protestors. It could have been really ugly. All because weapons were brought into a situation where they never needed to be in the first place.

I can't believe you are standing up for these people.

People who are even refusing to do the things that you have clearly accepted and are currently doing yourself. Why support these trouble makers?

Just because you see them as being Trump Supporters?

That's not a good enough reason to support these protestors. They are just troublemakers. Fortunately they represents an extremely small percentage of the population. Most people have no problem accepting the advice of the medical professionals.

And if anyone has better ideas, submit them to the governors with no AK-47s attached. No need for the guns.

This could be done intelligently. But those protestors had nothing of value to offer anyone.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 3 by Divine Insight]

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your civil tone and concerns. Just a couple of points.

-Thanks for clarifying that you only want the gun-toting protesters to go to jail. That is an understandable response to a seemingly threatening situation. I too wonder why they thought that was necessary, and don't think it helps the cause of freedom. In this case, it hurts the cause.

That was in Michigan. But please don't generalize or else that would be a straw-man argument. That is not happening all over the country. For example, protestors at the Massachusetts Statehouse in Boston recently were not "gun-toting" but peaceful. The only "weapons" they carried were rhetorical ones in making their arguments.

-Yes, there may be asymptomatic spread, but wouldn't social distancing and hand sanitizer take care of that? Masks for people who are symptomatic, not for everyone else, unless they want to wear masks. No one is suggesting that we take them away, just that they need not be mandated for the average, asymptomatic person.

-People with heart and lung issues need to shop too. There are varying degrees of these diseases, and unless people with lung disease are symptomatic, they too should be allowed in stores. And heart disease is not contagious. They are allowed to shop, even in Draconian Massachusetts, and they should be.

But I do try to understand what seems to be Gov. Baker's over-reaction. Mass. is one of the three hardest hit states, along with NY and NJ. So to a degree, his actions are understandable. What is concerning though is that he seems unconcerned about economic devastation that his actions, and those of local town and city officials, are causing. Easy for them, when their paychecks are not affected by all this.

It is a balancing act, and our leaders should not forget this.

[Tcg]

6-feet is already pretty close. In fact, most people are violating the 6-foot rule already. I personally try to keep at least 10-feet away from strangers when possible. Obviously that's not always possible.

A recent news blurb documented a Spirit jet that was filled to or near maximum capacity. A graphic was displayed to illustrate that a sneeze could travel as far as two or three rows ahead and even the same behind the sneezing passenger. This prompted me to do a bit of research. Here is some of what I found:

• How far can a cough travel?
  
  (CNN) - As some states start to reopen, the coronavirus is still spreading and officials still recommend people stand six feet apart, but is that really how far germs can travel from a cough?
  
  At a lab at Florida Atlantic University, two engineering professors are measuring the power of a cough. Using a dummy, they filled its mouth with a mix of glycerin and water and then with a pump, forced the dummy to cough to see how far the droplets travel.
  
  “It generates particles on the order of 10 to 20 microns, which is roughly close to what the smallest droplet sizes are when we cough,� Sid Verma, Assistant Professor of Engineering at Florida Atlantic University, said.
  
  The droplets traveled a distance of three feet almost immediately. Within five seconds, the droplets were at six feet and then nine feet in just about 10 seconds.
  
  https://www.walb.com/2020/05/02/how-far ... gh-travel/
  
  <bolding mine>

Sneezes are even more problematic:

• One sneeze spreads germs how far?
  
  "Sneeze and cough germs spread far and fast," says Dr. Stephanie Kelleher, a Geisinger family physician. "These tiny droplets float through the air and you can get a cold, the flu or another illness when you come into contact with them."
  
  A study from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology noted that germs from one sneeze could travel from 19 to 26 feet. What’s also unfortunate is how fast these germs travel: A sneeze can move 100 miles per hour, which makes getting away from someone when they sneeze close to impossible.
  
  https://www.geisinger.org/health-and-we ... ms-how-far
  
  <bolding mine>

You are wise to extend your social distance when possible. While masks don't alleviate the problem completely, they sure help. More from the Florida Atlantic University study:

• They even put a mask on the dummy and the particles still dispersed from the sides of the mask, but they did not travel very far.

If our goal is to open the economy soon and to do so as safely as possible, the use of masks should be viewed as a means to achieve that goal. To not do so would require us to lengthen the social distancing guidelines to essentially impossible lengths and as you have also pointed out, many don't maintain the 6 feet as recommended now.

The use of masks should be viewed as a positive for both the health of our citizens and the economy of our nation.


Tcg

[Tcg]

Why would any American refuse to abide by such a health-related order?

To refuse to wear a mask is an extremely arrogant and selfish thing to do.

Indeed it is. Let's do a bit of math related to this subject. On average a person can be contagious and yet not show any symptoms for 5 or 6 days. According to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ , there are as of this posting 1,028,465 active cases of COVID-19 in the U.S.

If we wait until symptoms appear to require wearing masks, using the lower average of 5 days, we would end up with approximately 5,000,000 virtual exposure days given the current active cases. Waiting until symptoms appear before we require the use of masks is clearly too great of a risk.


Tcg

[Overcomer]

I hear you, Divine Insight! We're having the same problem in Canada.

So far, mask-wearing has been optional here. We have been asked to do it because it's the right and safe thing to do. Unfortunately, it has been hard to get our hands on as many masks as we need, but people are making and putting them out there all the time and most of us are trying to protect others by wearing them.

Last weekend, hundreds of people congregated in a park in Toronto with no masks on. This means that they not only put all of themselves at risk, but everybody they come in contact with in the future at risk. It could result in a myriad of new COVID-19 cases, a significant number of deaths, and a tremendous burden on the health-care system.

I can only image how frustrated doctors, nurses, paramedics, respiratory therapists, etc. are when they see these people out there, ignoring the pleas for social-distancing, not wearing masks, spreading the virus with no thought for anybody but themselves.

And it's tough on the police, too, because they are being asked to monitor the public with regard to prevention of the virus and they have to deal with these people who are flagrantly putting themselves and others at risk.

There is talk of making mask-wearing mandatory and, in the wake of that, a civil liberties group here is saying it will sue the government for taking away their right to choose or not choose to wear a mask. You mentioned the law about using seat belts, DI, and that is exactly the comparison I have been making. We are required, by law, to wear them for our own protection and well-being. We are being asked to wear masks for the same reasons. But then, there may be "freedom" fighters who argued against that, too. The law has been in effect so long that I don't remember.

But yes, you're right, DI, it's selfish and arrogant, not to mention stupid.