Caption this photo

Two hot topics for the price of one

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historia
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Caption this photo

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Post by historia »

Image

Question for debate: What is going on in this photo? What message does it send?

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #51

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:10 pm I'm sticking with the facts as determined by the Washington DC mayor. Anybody wants to disagree? That's their business.
I'm sticking with the facts from the primary sources, like White House press secretary, AG Barr, and some of the police on the ground, as well as video footage.

Of course we can't expect left-wing media to tell the truth on the issue

koko

Re: Caption this photo

Post #52

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Barr?


hahahahaha

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #53

Post by otseng »

koko wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:32 pm Barr?

hahahahaha

9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates.

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #54

Post by historia »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:31 am
It seems with the George Floyd's case, it's making a lot of people hypersensitive and now every push by police is seen as violence, police brutality, or even racism without regard for circumstance.
A fair point. In the interest of not being hypersensitive, it seems to me we should extend that same generosity to the protestors at Lafayette Square when considering the evidence.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:02 pm
Before the cops even moved up to the protestors, you see bottles on the floor right in front of them. Did you consider that those were thrown, as well?
Lots of things are possible. But the Park Service Police themselves said that protestors started throwing projectiles at 6:33 PM, which corresponds to when the police began pushing forward, not before.

What the evidence shows, then, is that a handful of protestors momentarily threw a few water bottles in response to the police starting their dispersal action, which other protestors then quelled rather quickly.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:02 pm
we can not conflate moving up to protestors with dispersing them
When police disperse a large crowd, they usually don't do so in a single, continuous movement. Rather, they often employ the tactic we see here, where they push forward, stop, and then wait for a time before moving forward again.

So, when police push toward the protestors at 21:00 in the longer video, that is the beginning of the dispersal action. The second push is at 21:30. In the next couple of pushes, they start sweeping out the protesters -- starting at 15th Street, on the east end of Lafayette Square, and moving westward down H Street.

It takes the police awhile to reach the person filming because he is in the middle of the protest at 16th street. It's only in that next push, starting at 28:20, that the police decide to use tear gas and rubber bullets.

Again, this seriously calls into question the White House's claim that, in response to the crowd becoming "increasingly unruly" and throwing projectiles, the police had "no other choice than, in that moment, to act and make sure that they were safe" by dispersing the crowd with tear gas and rubber bullets. The protestors momentarily threw a few water bottles. The police then spend the next seven minutes clearing out fully half the protest area without resorting to the use of munitions. Only at that point do they choose to deploy tear gas and other weapons on the protestors.

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #55

Post by historia »

As we collectively lose interest here, perhaps I can offer a few concluding thoughts on this tangent.

I appreciate the overarching point you are trying to make, AgnosticBoy, which seems to be that the events were more complex than perhaps some of the initial reporting would suggest. Certainly, left-wing political commentators have been quick to depict the protestors as peaceful, while the White House and right-wing commentators have been quick to call them violent.

Describing a large, complex event involving hundreds of people as being "completely" one thing or another is something I generally avoid. But, having now reviewed quite a bit of evidence, if I was forced to choose between the two depictions, it seem to me the view that the protestors were peaceful is closer to the truth. The Park Police and White House's shifting explanations strike me as excuses.

In these videos, I don't get the impression that police are reacting in self-defense to a violent crowd. Rather, what I see is a rushed attempt to clear-out the protestors. Which leads us back to the broader point:
AgnosticBoy wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:44 pm
Perhaps Trump or Kushner made the decision to go on the walk to St. John's AFTER learning about the plans to extend the security perimeter.
If only for the sake of argument, let's assume this is true, and pick up the events from there.

At 6:10 PM -- just five minutes after the White House announces that the President will give a speech in the Rose Garden, and just five minutes before that speech is scheduled to start -- Barr arrives at Lafayette Square along with the Secret Service (we see this at the start of the longer video), presumably to make sure there is a clear path to the church.

There isn't. At that point, White House officials have a basic choice to make: They can either reschedule the President's visit, or they can clear-out the protestors. They choose the latter.

Even if the area was supposed to be cleared out earlier, but wasn't. And, even if, while dispersing the crowd, a handful of protestors momentarily threw water bottles at the police. At the end of the day, it seems to me we are left with the basic fact that these protestors were violently dispersed so Trump could have a photo op.

koko

Re: Caption this photo

Post #56

Post by koko »

otseng wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:24 am
koko wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:32 pm Barr?

hahahahaha

9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates.



Sorry. Won't happen again.

But do stand by my earlier posts that the real evidence which proves my point is there. Trump and Barr have their agenda as do their supporters. But that agenda does not entail the truth. The facts are there. It has been affirmed by the mayor and police chief who are concerned about their community, not in promoting any political or divisive agenda.

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #57

Post by AgnosticBoy »

koko wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:12 am
otseng wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:24 am
koko wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:32 pm Barr?

hahahahaha

9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates.



Sorry. Won't happen again.

But do stand by my earlier posts that the real evidence which proves my point is there. Trump and Barr have their agenda as do their supporters. But that agenda does not entail the truth. The facts are there. It has been affirmed by the mayor and police chief who are concerned about their community, not in promoting any political or divisive agenda.
Everyone has their agenda. That's why both parties interpret everything differently, from Fox News to CNn, from conservatives to liberals.

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #58

Post by Goat »

koko wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:08 pm What's going on in the photo?

The same thing that happened here:


Image



Just like Hitler and in Shakespeare's Richard II where the lead character fraternizes with Bishop Carlisle and uses the church's support to usurp and maintain the Throne of England. Any such usage constitutes taking the Lord's name in vain. Well, no surprise given that Trump called himself the "Chosen". Those who have read the Bible know only the Antichrist would call himself that.
I will point out the specific photo of Hitler has been photo shopped. However, there are plenty of photos of Hitler meeting with Clergy.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

koko

Re: Caption this photo

Post #59

Post by koko »

Goat wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:21 pm
I will point out the specific photo of Hitler has been photo shopped. However, there are plenty of photos of Hitler meeting with Clergy.


History cannot be more clear about this: https://tinyurl.com/ybwfkdar


Trump is doing precisely what Hitler did in so many ways: blaming minorities for society's ills, spewing racialist hate, condemning the media which attempted to report the truth about his evils, creating policies that enrich the wealthy, denigrating and firing those who dare to disagree with them, demonizing political opponents, etc.

These are not the actions of true Christians. It follows that supporting those policies do not constitute true Christianity.

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Re: Caption this photo

Post #60

Post by AgnosticBoy »

historia wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:52 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:31 am Before the cops even moved up to the protestors, you see bottles on the floor right in front of them. Did you consider that those were thrown, as well?
Lots of things are possible. But the Park Service Police themselves said that protestors started throwing projectiles at 6:33 PM, which corresponds to when the police began pushing forward, not before.

What the evidence shows, then, is that a handful of protestors momentarily threw a few water bottles in response to the police starting their dispersal action, which other protestors then quelled rather quickly.
I don't agree with all of your evidence based on the video evidence I posted which shows a time (it is the time in Australia which is 14 hrs. ahead of US Eastern time). Based on my video, bottles were flying around 6:01pm and even before that based on your video which show bottles on the floor. But there is room for some of your points to be true as well as mine. My overall point is that the protestors were not completely peaceful. That alone is grounds to push them back or even disperse them completely. Therefore the crowd were not pushed back only for a photo op. This is far different than saying that a completely peaceful protest was dispersed only for a photo op.

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