YOU'RE FIRED!

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Miles
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YOU'RE FIRED!

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


Joe Biden, now with 279 electoral votes and Trump with only 213 or 214 electoral votes (depends on whom your watching) is the clear President Elect of the U.S.A..

Trump received the news while golfing in Florida. (Where else would he be?)


Upon hearing of Biden's 279 electoral votes. . . .

Image

“Frankly, we did win this election.” * "Yup." "You sure did your highness." "yes siree!"


"Shortly before his defeat by Joe Biden was called, and with the nation deeply divided, Donald Trump began his Saturday by tweeting inflammatory and unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud. Then he went to play golf.

The president, the White House pool reporter wrote, appeared for the motorcade to his course in Sterling, Virginia “wearing white Maga cap, windbreaker, dark slacks, non-dress shirt, shoes that look appropriate for golfing”.

Trump’s dedication to playing golf while in office has been a source of continuing controversy – particularly because he memorably and repeatedly lambasted his predecessor, Barack Obama, over how often he played the game."
source

And

"Trump Was Golfing When He Lost the Presidency"
Where were you when you found out the 2020 presidential election was called for Joe Biden? I was at home, blogging. My neighbors appear to have been “at the store, shopping for airhorns.” We know where President Trump was: at the golf course. According to the Associated Press, Trump left for his golf course in Virginia earlier this morning and hasn’t yet come back.

Thoughts and prayers for his caddie."
source

And Trump's response?

"Donald Trump is refusing to concede the presidential election to Joe Biden even after the Associated Press, and every US television news network, declared him the president-elect, saying the race is “far from over” and promising an intense legal fight.

“The simple fact is this election is far from over. Joe Biden has not been certified as the winner of any states, let alone any of the highly contested states headed for mandatory recounts, or states where our campaign has valid and legitimate legal challenges that could determine the ultimate victor,” the president said in a statement, released by his campaign.

“Beginning Monday, our campaign will start prosecuting our case in court to ensure election laws are fully upheld and the rightful winner is seated. The American people are entitled to an honest election: that means counting all legal ballots, and not counting any illegal ballots,” he said, continuing to claim there is widespread voter fraud but without evidence."
source


So, kind members, how do you think Trump will be handling his defeat in the coming months. Will he actually go ahead with an "intense legal fight"? Will he welcome the Bidens into the White House in January as is the custom? Will he even attend Biden's inauguration? Some TV pundits are doubtful.

*source


.

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Post #2

Post by AgnosticBoy »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

It seems that Biden won mostly off of mail in votes. A good number of these types of votes can be challenged so
I'll wait until the Trump's team investigation into election fraud is over before concluding that Biden won.

Mail-in voting and other areas lacking oversight creates an easy way to cheat but Trump bears the burden of proof to show that fraud has indeed happened.

For instance,
Policies vary widely state by state as well as on what is required to have a mail ballot counted; some states only require a voter's signature
.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/86489917 ... ed-to-know

Nevermind going to polling places without an ID and still being allowed to vote.
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Re: YOU'RE FIRED!

Post #3

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Given that Trump threatened to interfere with a free and fair election before the counting started and did so during even the early counting process, it would not be surprising if he continues to do so even though it is clear the people have fired him. Thankfully, we well soon be free of this most unpresidential president. I can't wait for decency, dignity, and honesty to be returned to our highest office.

Of course some of his followers will continue to follow his lead and complain about certain aspects of the election even though they have no evidence of any wrongdoing. Making false claims is Trump's M.O. and unfortunately many of his followers have learned to do the same. As the weeks go on, the emptiness of these claims will become apparent.


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Post #4

Post by AgnosticBoy »

[Replying to Tcg in post #3]

I would not say that Trump is lying on the issue of mail-in ballots, but rather I'd say he hasn't done enough to prove his case.

The reason I say this is because the United States election process lacks safeguards to ensure that there's no cheating. I mean in some cases, it is harder to buy alcohol (since ID and age verification is required) than to vote. That's unacceptable, especially given a highly polarizing country where each side has plenty motive to cheat. Any good voting process should have the standard of making it easy to catch cheating. When I look at the mail-in voting policies, I don't see the system meeting that standard. For instance, can't someone simply take my mail-in ballot and sign it for me and get away with it? The answer is yes, at least if we're going by the standards of cities like Philadelphia.
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Post #5

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

If the Donald continues to interfere with this free and fair election, there are clear steps that can be taken to remove him after his term has ended:

Biden Campaign: Feds Could Escort “Trespasser” Trump Out of White House. What Might That Look Like?

With Donald Trump filing lawsuits, claiming electoral fraud, and asserting that he won the Tuesday election that appears likely to be called in favor of Joe Biden, Washington’s attention has focused on an improbable subject: What happens if the 45th president doesn’t leave? Biden’s camp, which has otherwise spent the week urging calm, issued a blunt statement this morning: “As we said on July 19th, the American people will decide this election. And the United States government is perfectly capable of escorting trespassers out of the White House.”

In fact, some observers have been playing out this very scenario since well before the president’s furious post-election tweetstorms. If a defeated Trump were squatting in the Oval Office after the stroke of noon on January 20, “the successor could direct federal agents to forcibly remove Trump from the White House,” former US attorney Barbara McQuade wrote in The Atlantic earlier this year. “Now a private citizen, Trump would no longer be immune from criminal prosecution, and could be arrested and charged with trespassing in the White House.”

https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/11/0 ... look-like/

While this would bring further embarrassment to our once great nation, it would make for quite the reality show. Perhaps the Donald could create a spin-off for his next career move.


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Post #6

Post by AgnosticBoy »

[Replying to Tcg in post #5]
You're offering a lot of rhetoric/personal commentary and no engagement in debate. I challenged your claim that the 2020 election process was a "fair" election if you intend that to mean that there was no cheating or no way to cheat. Can you please address that, if you disagree?

This is a debate section so can we tone down on the rhetoric and partisan commentary? There are already plenty media outlets for that (Fox News? CNN?). Let's DEBATE!!!
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Post by historia »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:37 am
For instance, can't someone simply take my mail-in ballot and sign it for me and get away with it?
No, this isn't "simple" at all.

First of all, your mail-in ballot is mailed directly to you from your country election office. It would be difficult for a nefarious actor to intercept that before you get it.

Second, this nefarious actor would also have to know your signature. That's also difficult to get. If they can't match it closely enough, the ballot will get rejected.

Finally, this whole scheme depends on you not taking any action after you realize you never got your mail-in ballot. If, instead, you decide to check your state's ballot tracking website or go to the polls on election day to fill-in a provisional ballot, then you'd both be able to cast your vote and also expose this attempted fraud.

And therein lies the problem. In order to actually impact an election through this kind of fraud, these nefarious actors would need to do this tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of times, all the while hoping nobody notices or takes actions that would expose them.

If you've got the time and energy to pull something like that off, you've got the time and energy to do something even more effective in terms of impacting an election: registering new voters. See: Georgia.

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Post #8

Post by AgnosticBoy »

historia wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:28 am
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:37 am For instance, can't someone simply take my mail-in ballot and sign it for me and get away with it?
No, this isn't "simple" at all.

First of all, the ballot is mailed directly to you from your country election office. It'll be difficult for a nefarious actor to intercept your ballot before you get it.

Second, this nefarious actor would also have to know your signature. That's also difficult to get. If they can't match it closely enough, the ballot will get rejected.
The scenario I was thinking of is when someone steals your ballot when it arrives to your mailbox. It is stolen before you had a chance to check your mailbox and then it is signed in your name. In some cities like Philadelphia, ballots can not be rejected off of technicalities, like signature mismatches. Here's one source that explains that, cbs.
historia wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:28 amFinally, this whole scheme depends on you not taking any action after you realize you never got your mail-in ballot.
This would depend on if the voter requested one vs. one being sent out automatically (without request). I agree with you that this can be noticed assuming that the voter goes to vote in person. Keep in mind that stealing mail-in ballots was just one of the ways that I cited for cheating to occur. There's also problems with overseeing the manual counting of ballots, there's places that don't require ID, etc. All of this opens the door to cheating and having little to no way to expose it, especially in heavily democrat run areas.

Just to reiterate. I'm not claiming that there's proof of cheating, but rather I'm claiming that we wouldn't be able to know about it in a lot of cases given the fact that we lack oversight to catch cheating in the first place. If there is no witness to observe manual counting of ballots, then I can't say that those counting the ballots in heavily Democrat run areas are not engaged in cheating. For now, it would seem that if Trump has any chance of winning legally, it would be focusing on the LACK of oversight for mail-in ballots, and ordering a recount with much more oversight.
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Post #9

Post by historia »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:27 pm
The scenario I was thinking of is when someone steals your ballot when it arrives to your mailbox.
Yes, I understand. The problem, though, is that the scenario you are imagining here where it would be "simple" to pull this off assumes a combination of factors that don't actually exist in the real world.

To illustrate that, let's ground your scenario in an actual place. Since you're so concerned about Philadelphia, let's say you live in Philadelphia. In Pennsylvania, you have to apply to vote by mail, so let's say you did that as well.

Your question again:
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:37 am
For instance, can't someone simply take my mail-in ballot and sign it for me and get away with it?
No, this isn't "simple" at all.

First, in big cities like Philadelphia, people often live in apartment buildings or houses where the mail is delivered to locked mailboxes or through a slot in your (locked) front door. Someone can't "simply" steal your ballot.

Second, if you never got the mail-in ballot you explicitly requested, you would almost certainly check the Pennsylvania state ballot tracker website (to discover someone else already turned it in!) or go in-person to cast a provisional ballot. Either action would result in election officials being alerted to voter fraud. So these nefarious actors couldn't "simply" get away with it.

Third, this is a non-sensical scenario to begin with. Philadelphia has historically voted overwhelmingly for the Democratic nominee for President. So why in the world would nefarious Democratic operatives go around the city trying to steal mail-in ballots from voters who were already most likely to vote for Biden in the first place?

You claimed this kind of fraud was "easy" to pull off. But where, exactly, would it be easy to do that? In rural areas where people have easy access to unlocked mailboxes? In states where there is universal mail-in voting? It sounds to me like you're describing rural Utah, not Philadelphia. Except Utah, like other states with universal mail-in voting, have strict checks on signatures, so it wouldn't be "simple" to do it there either.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:27 pm
Just to reiterate. I'm not claiming that there's proof of cheating, but rather I'm claiming that we wouldn't be able to know about it in a lot of cases given the fact that we lack oversight to catch cheating in the first place.
As we've already seen, any attempt to steal and return mail-in ballots on a scale that would actually impact an election would almost certainly produce thousands of complaints, rejected signatures, and provisional ballots that would expose the attempted fraud to election officials. So your claim that we wouldn't catch this happening is simply untrue. The same would be true of attempted in-person voter fraud.
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:27 pm
If there is no witness to observe manual counting of ballots, then I can't say that those counting the ballots in heavily Democrat run areas are not engaged in cheating.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Mail-in ballots in Philadelphia, for example, are counted by scanning machines, not manually. And the Trump campaign has had election observers in the Philadelphia Convention Center, where mail-in ballots are being processed and counted, this whole time -- they even admitted as much in one of their lawsuits. So what, exactly, is your concern?

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Post #10

Post by AgnosticBoy »

historia wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:11 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:27 pm The scenario I was thinking of is when someone steals your ballot when it arrives to your mailbox.
Yes, I understand. The problem, though, is that the scenario you are imagining here where it would be "simple" to pull this off assumes a combination of factors that don't actually exist in the real world.
You have not proven that my scenario would not work in the real world and one big reason why is that you're acting as if your scenarios are the only possible ones. Your scenario assumes that a combination of factors will happen when in actuality they don't have to happen.
historia wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:11 pmTo illustrate that, let's ground your scenario in an actual place. Since you're so concerned about Philadelphia, let's say you live in Philadelphia. In Pennsylvania, you have to apply to vote by mail, so let's say you did that as well. Your question again:
AgnosticBoy wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:37 am For instance, can't someone simply take my mail-in ballot and sign it for me and get away with it?
No, this isn't "simple" at all.
First, in big cities like Philadelphia, people often live in apartment buildings or houses where the mail is delivered to locked mailboxes or through a slot in your (locked) front door. Someone can't "simply" steal your ballot.
Your scenario involves locked mailboxes, but I presume big cities like Philadelphia also have mailboxes without locks. You can't claim that mailed ballots can't be stolen in all cases given the fact that your scenario (locked mailboxes) doesn't exist in all cases since there are mailboxes without locks.
historia wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:11 pm Second, if you never got the mail-in ballot you explicitly requested, you would almost certainly check the Pennsylvania state ballot tracker website (to discover someone else already turned it in!) or go in-person to cast a provisional ballot. Either action would result in election officials being alerted to voter fraud. So these nefarious actors couldn't "simply" get away with it.
You're engaging in the same faulty reasoning that I brought up for your previous point. You assume that your scenario or the combination of factors you brought up will happen all the time.

For instance, you said that Pennsylvania voters can only get a ballot in the mail if they explicitly request one. Well that is not right. Then you also assume that the voter will also check their status or vote when just the opposite can happen. But let's go through each point at a time. Here's a report of Pennsylvania voters receiving mailed ballot applications without requesting them:
Many voters have been surprised to find mail-in ballot applications in their mailboxes this election cycle even though they never requested them. In a year when election security is at the forefront, some may find these unsolicited forms unnerving or suspicious.

Unlike some states, Pennsylvania does not send out unsolicited mail-in ballots or ballot applications to voters. Normally, anyone who wants to vote by mail needs to apply online, download the application and mail it in or go to their local elections office and pick up the form. Online voter applications can be found at www.votespa.com.

However, some organizations such as political parties, political campaigns and voter advocacy groups have mailed application forms to people listed on their contact lists. This is legal under Pennsylvania law, and groups have taken similar steps to get residents registered to vote in the past, said Wanda Murren, spokesperson for the Pennsylvania Department of State.
The Morning Call newspaper.

Here's further corroboration that these reports were received:
Attorney General Shapiro Joins Secretary of State Boockvar To Inform Voters on Mail-In Ballots

HARRISBURG—Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro joined Secretary of State Kathy Boockvar in putting out guidance today for voters who say they received mail-in ballots that were not requested.

Earlier today Secretary Boockvar stated, “we understand that some voters are receiving a mail ballot for the general election when they do not remember applying for one. Pennsylvania is not a state that automatically sends mail ballots to voters. Voters must apply for the ballot for it to be sent to them, and their eligibility and identification is confirmed through that process. Act 77 also created a new option, however, that allows voters to sign up annually to automatically receive mail ballots for all elections that year, and more than a million Pennsylvanians have signed up for this option.”
Source: Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office.

Now I can easily imagine someone who wasn't expecting to receive a mailed ballot having their ballot stolen, perhaps because someone applied for them even, and then the thief signs their ballot and turns it in. I can imagine this happening more in states that had universal mail-in ballots, meaning ballots were mailed out to voters without requesting them. Now if the voter never checks their voter status or never votes, then that ballot can go through in places like Philadelphia.
historia wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:11 pmThird, this is a non-sensical scenario to begin with. Philadelphia has historically voted overwhelmingly for the Democratic nominee for President. So why in the world would nefarious Democratic operatives go around the city trying to steal mail-in ballots from voters who were already most likely to vote for Biden in the first place?
Eventhough Joe Biden would easily win Philadelphia, but if he could get a greater number of votes there then that would help his overall vote total for the state and increase his chance of winning.
historia wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:11 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:27 pm Just to reiterate. I'm not claiming that there's proof of cheating, but rather I'm claiming that we wouldn't be able to know about it in a lot of cases given the fact that we lack oversight to catch cheating in the first place.
As we've already seen, any attempt to steal and return mail-in ballots on a scale that would actually impact an election would almost certainly produce thousands of complaints, rejected signatures, and provisional ballots that would expose the attempted fraud to election officials. So your claim that we wouldn't catch this happening is simply untrue. The same would be true of attempted in-person voter fraud.
I agree with your point to a degree if we assume that mail-in ballots were being stolen on a large scale. I still maintain that it can happen and a person can get away with it but this would probably be successful on a small scale (still all votes matter).

Also, call me a skeptic but I also question what you meant by "we". I'm very skeptical of the vote count in any highly partisan (heavily democrat or republican dominated city), so unless you have bipartisan oversight, which Trump legal team complained about LACKING in Philadelphia when observers were not in good positions to observe, then I even see it possible that such counties would allow cheating.

When someone tries to block or limit transparency then that is questionable.
historia wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:11 pm
AgnosticBoy wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:27 pm If there is no witness to observe manual counting of ballots, then I can't say that those counting the ballots in heavily Democrat run areas are not engaged in cheating.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Mail-in ballots in Philadelphia, for example, are counted by scanning machines, not manually. And the Trump campaign has had election observers in the Philadelphia Convention Center, where mail-in ballots are being processed and counted, this whole time -- they even admitted as much in one of their lawsuits. So what, exactly, is your concern?
Actually, there is some manual processing. The poll workers have to make sure the envelope is sealed correctly, signatures match (in some cases), that the voter is in the system. After the manual process, then it is put in a scanner to be counted. Now, historically speaking, mail-in ballots have had a high number of rejections due to various technicalities, but I'm willing to bet that the real liberal Democrat areas are lax on those technicalities, like when Philadelphia does not conduct signature matching and they just let those votes get counted. To ensure otherwise, I would think it fair that there was BIpartisan oversight to monitor the manual processing.

Georgia will be doing a recount and it is said to be all manual. That process should have bipartisan oversight, like making sure each vote count ii witnessed by people from both parties.
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