Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

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Miles
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Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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"Our nation’s civil rights laws protect people on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, and disability in public accommodations—meaning public spaces and commercial services that are available to the general public, such as restaurants, theaters, and hotels. However, no federal law prohibits discrimination in public places and services on the basis of sex, gender identity, or sexual orientation. Consequently, people can be denied access to these public places and services based on who they are or whom they love, with little recourse.
source

However, there are employment laws against discrimination based of sexual orientation, and age.
source

So in main,* we have laws that prohibit discrimination based on:

age
Race
Color
National Origin
Disability
Sexual Orientation
Religion

Now, what do almost all have in common? Aside from religion, they are all based on characteristics over which we have no control. Either we are born with them or, like disabilities, they developed unbidden.

You cannot help

Your age
Your Race,
Your color
your National origin
Your disability
Your sexual orientation

But! you can help what religion, if any, you belong to. Just like it's your choice as what type of political system you champion, or the kind of clothes you choose to wear, both of which are not protected by anti-discrimination laws. Likewise, the religion you belong to is something you choose, which brings up the question as to why it deserves a form of protection that nothing else in life one chooses to do does?

Why does one's choice of religion get such preferential treatment? If I bake cakes only for Catholics why can't I refuse to bake cakes for Muslims? If I'm a Baptist who loans money for a living, why do I have to loan money to otherwise qualified Scientologists?

I can discriminate against people because of their

Choice of pornography
Bad breath
Choice of Political party
Inability to carry a tune
Choice of hair style or lack thereof
Food likes and dislikes
Choice of friends
Job

But not their Religion. ........WHY?..............Why is religion treated like such a snow flake?




* Some lists include additional types of discrimination such as "Relationship to someone who may be discriminated against" and "Reprisal / Retaliation."



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Last edited by Miles on Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #2

Post by Athetotheist »

Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pmWhy does one's choice of religion get such preferential treatment?
The short answer is "Freedom of Conscience". The sticky part is when someone's conscience clashes with someone else's.

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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #3

Post by bjs1 »

Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm I can discriminate against people because of their

Choice of pornography
Bad breath
Choice of Political party
Inability to carry a tune
Choice of hair style or lack thereof
Food likes and dislikes
Choice of friends
Job
I don’t think you actually can discriminate for these causes. It would be very difficult to argue that you refused to rent a commercial conference room to someone because you did not like his hair style.
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm But not their Religion. ........WHY?..............Why is religion treated like such a snow flake?
Would you prefer it not be this way? Do you think it would be better if the lack of belief (an inherent part of freedom of religion) could be outlawed?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #4

Post by Miles »

bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:46 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm I can discriminate against people because of their

Choice of pornography
Bad breath
Choice of Political party
Inability to carry a tune
Choice of hair style or lack thereof
Food likes and dislikes
Choice of friends
Job
I don’t think you actually can discriminate for these causes. It would be very difficult to argue that you refused to rent a commercial conference room to someone because you did not like his hair style.
There would have to be a law against it. Is there?


Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm But not their Religion. ........WHY?..............Why is religion treated like such a snow flake?
Would you prefer it not be this way?
I believe I would. Why should Scientologist be given a break when Neo Nazis and KKK members are not. (Not that I think Neo-Nazis and KKK members deserve a break, but neither do I believe that Scientologist, Baptists, or Catholics be given one either.)
Do you think it would be better if the lack of belief (an inherent part of freedom of religion) could be outlawed?
Not talking about outlawing anyone, just bringing up the fact that religions get anti-discrimination privileges not accorded to any other organization that people choose to be members of. If I choose to be a member of the National Socialist Movement, a Neo-Nazi organization, do I receive any non-discrimination privileges? If I join the North Hennepin Bridge Club Association do I get any non-discrimination privileges? How about if I join the Boy Scouts of America, do I receive non-discrimination privileges?

Nope! Nope! And Nope!

So, what's so special about religion that it's accorded such protection? As a matter of documented fact, in their struggle to enforce their beliefs religions have killed millions upon millions of people, to say nothing of all those they have subjugated, or simply mistreated. So while religions may put on a smiley face and actually be of help in their communities, they are not without their very dark sides---and No, I'm not going to bother backing up any of my assertions here because they're just too well acknowledged.

Just to be clear; as I said in my OP, I'm all for non-discrimination laws based on characteristics over which we have no control. Those we are either born with or, like disabilities, those that develop unbidden, but not for simply being a member of an organization we choose to join.




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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #5

Post by bjs1 »

Miles wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm
bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:46 pm I don’t think you actually can discriminate for these causes. It would be very difficult to argue that you refused to rent a commercial conference room to someone because you did not like his hair style.
There would have to be a law against it. Is there?
In America at least it is more complicated than that. Here is a pretty good sumary:

"[The right to refuse service] does not allow business owners to refuse service based on arbitrary reasons outside of the protected classes (though pointing out signs to cries of “No fair!” might avoid any further action on the part of spurned patrons). Instead, reasons must be legitimate enough to hold up in court. In general, refusal of service is justified in cases where a customer’s presence interferes with the safety and well-being of other patrons and the establishment itself. The most basic examples of this include patrons who are unreasonably rowdy, patrons lacking adequate hygiene, and those accompanied by large groups of non-customers.

Or consider this more nuanced example: In 2001, a California court ruled that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that denied members entry because they were wearing their club colors. The sports bar wasn’t denying the club members entry because they didn’t like their logo, but because management thought that allowing the colors to be worn could lead to fights with rival clubs inside the bar. Though no such fight had ever occurred, preventing hypothetical violence is considered a legitimate business interest."

https://www.mydoorsign.com/blog/right-t ... p%20status



So disliking a certain food is not reason enough to be refused service. Bringing outside food into a restaurant would of course create a problem, but the mere preference does not.

Miles wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm But not their Religion. ........WHY?..............Why is religion treated like such a snow flake?
Would you prefer it not be this way?
I believe I would. Why should Scientologist be given a break when Neo Nazis and KKK members are not. (Not that I think Neo-Nazis and KKK members deserve a break, but neither do I believe that Scientologist, Baptists, or Catholics be given one either.)
Okay, but giving Scientologist a break means that atheists and agnostics also get a break. The right not to believe is an inherent part of freedom of religion. Are you comfortable removing your own protected status? Are you okay with being refused service or employment if you don’t go to church on Sunday?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #6

Post by Miles »

bjs1 wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:51 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm
bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:46 pm I don’t think you actually can discriminate for these causes. It would be very difficult to argue that you refused to rent a commercial conference room to someone because you did not like his hair style.
There would have to be a law against it. Is there?
In America at least it is more complicated than that. Here is a pretty good sumary:

"[The right to refuse service] does not allow business owners to refuse service based on arbitrary reasons outside of the protected classes (though pointing out signs to cries of “No fair!” might avoid any further action on the part of spurned patrons). Instead, reasons must be legitimate enough to hold up in court. In general, refusal of service is justified in cases where a customer’s presence interferes with the safety and well-being of other patrons and the establishment itself. The most basic examples of this include patrons who are unreasonably rowdy, patrons lacking adequate hygiene, and those accompanied by large groups of non-customers.

Or consider this more nuanced example: In 2001, a California court ruled that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that denied members entry because they were wearing their club colors. The sports bar wasn’t denying the club members entry because they didn’t like their logo, but because management thought that allowing the colors to be worn could lead to fights with rival clubs inside the bar. Though no such fight had ever occurred, preventing hypothetical violence is considered a legitimate business interest."

https://www.mydoorsign.com/blog/right-t ... p%20status



So disliking a certain food is not reason enough to be refused service. Bringing outside food into a restaurant would of course create a problem, but the mere preference does not.
Apparently so. Thanks for the research.


Miles wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm But not their Religion. ........WHY?..............Why is religion treated like such a snow flake?
Would you prefer it not be this way?
I believe I would. Why should Scientologist be given a break when Neo Nazis and KKK members are not. (Not that I think Neo-Nazis and KKK members deserve a break, but neither do I believe that Scientologist, Baptists, or Catholics be given one either.)
Okay, but giving Scientologist a break means that atheists and agnostics also get a break. The right not to believe is an inherent part of freedom of religion. Are you comfortable removing your own protected status? Are you okay with being refused service or employment if you don’t go to church on Sunday?
Good question. :approve: Hmmmmm. . . . . I guess I would not be okay it, but only as long as true religions get protection against discrimination. (Just to be clear, atheism and agnosticism are not religions.) However, regardless of any personal advantage, my question is with the government singling out religion for special treatment.

What is it about religious belief that garners such protection? Why should one's belief about a supreme being generate such privilege? Is there any reasoning that sets religion apart from all other belief systems so as to bring it an advantage?




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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #7

Post by bjs1 »

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:24 pm Good question. :approve: Hmmmmm. . . . . I guess I would not be okay it, but only as long as true religions get protection against discrimination. (Just to be clear, atheism and agnosticism are not religions.) However, regardless of any personal advantage, my question is with the government singling out religion for special treatment.
I think that you can answer you own question at this point. Ask yourself why you don’t want your own protections to be lost (and I am not calling atheism or agnosticism religions), then you will understand why religious beliefs are protected.

Miles wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:24 pm What is it about religious belief that garners such protection? Why should one's belief about a supreme being generate such privilege? Is there any reasoning that sets religion apart from all other belief systems so as to bring it an advantage?
They are not. Virtually all beliefs that do not harm or endanger another person are protected. A person cannot be refused service or employment because he is a Platonist or a Cynic or a Fan Of Star Trek.

Protections of religion are often more noticeable because, unlike many other beliefs, they require active commitment. Christianity, as an example, includes community, ethical behavior and public worship. Such things are not a part of Platonism or atheism. (I suppose being a Fan Of Start Trek would include attending conventions, but those are at least less common than weekly worship services.) Religious beliefs are not singled out for protection; they are just put into practice more often.
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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #8

Post by Purple Knight »

bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:46 pmI don’t think you actually can discriminate for these causes.
The technicality of the law might be that you can't, but in practice you can. Discrimination based on protected classes is what matters.

https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-b ... -be-legal/

If you read this, it states positively that without a specific state law, yes, you can be fired for being too short. That's legal. Because height/weight is not a protected characteristic.

Where can you discriminate against atheists? Everywhere but Madison, Wisconsin. Madison (and only Madison) has a specific law that you can't, which is what's required.

https://www.businessinsider.com/an-amer ... ver-2015-5

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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #9

Post by bjs1 »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:42 pm
bjs1 wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:46 pmI don’t think you actually can discriminate for these causes.
The technicality of the law might be that you can't, but in practice you can. Discrimination based on protected classes is what matters.

https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-b ... -be-legal/

If you read this, it states positively that without a specific state law, yes, you can be fired for being too short. That's legal. Because height/weight is not a protected characteristic.
Actually, this article shows that there must a specific work related reason why being short would disqualify someone from a job. Height/weight is not a protected class, but according to this article an employer must demonstrate that being short prevents a person from safely or effectively doing a specific job.
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:42 pm Where can you discriminate against atheists? Everywhere but Madison, Wisconsin. Madison (and only Madison) has a specific law that you can't, which is what's required.

https://www.businessinsider.com/an-amer ... ver-2015-5
This is simply false. Madison may be the only place that names atheism as a protected class, but the protection exists everywhere in the US. Naming atheism specifically is like protecting religious freedom and specifically protecting Buddhism.

https://www.employmentlawyernewyork.com ... Dbelievers
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: Religion And Its Protection Against Discrimination

Post #10

Post by nobspeople »

Miles wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:12 pm .


"Our nation’s civil rights laws protect people on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, and disability in public accommodations—meaning public spaces and commercial services that are available to the general public, such as restaurants, theaters, and hotels. However, no federal law prohibits discrimination in public places and services on the basis of sex, gender identity, or sexual orientation. Consequently, people can be denied access to these public places and services based on who they are or whom they love, with little recourse.
source

However, there are employment laws against discrimination based of sexual orientation, and age.
source

So in main,* we have laws that prohibit discrimination based on:

age
Race
Color
National Origin
Disability
Sexual Orientation
Religion

Now, what do almost all have in common? Aside from religion, they are all based on characteristics over which we have no control. Either we are born with them or, like disabilities, they developed unbidden.

You cannot help

Your age
Your Race,
Your color
your National origin
Your disability
Your sexual orientation

But! you can help what religion, if any, you belong to. Just like it's your choice as what type of political system you champion, or the kind of clothes you choose to wear, both of which are not protected by anti-discrimination laws. Likewise, the religion you belong to is something you choose, which brings up the question as to why it deserves a form of protection that nothing else in life one chooses to do does?

Why does one's choice of religion get such preferential treatment? If I bake cakes only for Catholics why can't I refuse to bake cakes for Muslims? If I'm a Baptist who loans money for a living, why do I have to loan money to otherwise qualified Scientologists?

I can discriminate against people because of their

Choice of pornography
Bad breath
Choice of Political party
Inability to carry a tune
Choice of hair style or lack thereof
Food likes and dislikes
Choice of friends
Job

But not their Religion. ........WHY?..............Why is religion treated like such a snow flake?




* Some lists include additional types of discrimination such as "Relationship to someone who may be discriminated against" and "Reprisal / Retaliation."



.
Religion is based on a belief most times.
Beliefs can't be proven true or false.
Because of this, people hold on to these beliefs more dearly than most anything else - people choose religion over their own family in many cases!
Why does religion need such protection when, so many times, it's the most offensive group around? Good political pressure back-n-the-day I suspect.
But now it's because they give so much ca$h to the politicians, paying them off as it were.
I find it more ironically sad that, as you point out, the thing we can choose (religion and religious affiliation) is the thing that is not only protected but allowed to promote hate across any bound they wish to cross.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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