Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

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JoeyKnothead
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Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the article here
atheists.org wrote: ...
Since 2019, the standard Mississippi license plate has included “In God We Trust.” Car owners are forced to promote this religious statement or pay an additional fee for a specialty plate without it. For trailer, RV, and motorcycle owners, motorists with disabilities, as well as drivers with a custom plate message, no alternative to the “In God We Trust” plate is available. In the lawsuit, American Atheists demands that Mississippi offer a plate without “In God We Trust” at no additional fee.
...
For debate:

Should Christians be allowed to force others to do their evangelical work for them?
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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #2

Post by Miles »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:45 am From the article here
atheists.org wrote: ...
Since 2019, the standard Mississippi license plate has included “In God We Trust.” Car owners are forced to promote this religious statement or pay an additional fee for a specialty plate without it. For trailer, RV, and motorcycle owners, motorists with disabilities, as well as drivers with a custom plate message, no alternative to the “In God We Trust” plate is available. In the lawsuit, American Atheists demands that Mississippi offer a plate without “In God We Trust” at no additional fee.
...
For debate:

Should Christians be allowed to force others to do their evangelical work for them?
Or, as is the case with the Mississippi license plate, have to pay not do it, which I consider even worse.


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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #3

Post by Purple Knight »

It's not forcing. Pay the fee.

In the past you were often simply killed if you didn't say you believed in their god(s) and swear all kinds of oaths that are probably spiritually binding if any of this nonsense happens to be real.

Future people are spoilt rotten. Holy flaming carpdragons. The crusades, anyone? Pay the $25 and opt out. Be glad of that option. Be glad it's a license plate that says something you don't agree with instead of literally swear fealty or die.

But let's examine this spiritually. What do we get as atheists? We get nothingness. If we're right we get nothingness. If we're wrong perhaps we still get nothingness because we never agreed to any religion. Now arguably if the "in god we trust" takes that nothingness and replaces it with Hell, I'd be marginally upset. But I don't think I'm spiritually liable for what the DMV puts on my car of their own accord. I don't believe I'm spiritually liable for graffiti sprayed on my house either. I don't think the idea that because someone burnt a cross on my lawn, I'm now forced into the rules of Christianity where I wasn't before is worthy of consideration. And unless that's the case, it's just something I don't like on my license plate with no greater implications. I can, and should, deal with things I don't like.

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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #4

Post by bluegreenearth »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:53 pm It's not forcing. Pay the fee.

In the past you were often simply killed if you didn't say you believed in their god(s) and swear all kinds of oaths that are probably spiritually binding if any of this nonsense happens to be real.

Future people are spoilt rotten. Holy flaming carpdragons. The crusades, anyone? Pay the $25 and opt out. Be glad of that option. Be glad it's a license plate that says something you don't agree with instead of literally swear fealty or die.

But let's examine this spiritually. What do we get as atheists? We get nothingness. If we're right we get nothingness. If we're wrong perhaps we still get nothingness because we never agreed to any religion. Now arguably if the "in god we trust" takes that nothingness and replaces it with Hell, I'd be marginally upset. But I don't think I'm spiritually liable for what the DMV puts on my car of their own accord. I don't believe I'm spiritually liable for graffiti sprayed on my house either. I don't think the idea that because someone burnt a cross on my lawn, I'm now forced into the rules of Christianity where I wasn't before is worthy of consideration. And unless that's the case, it's just something I don't like on my license plate with no greater implications. I can, and should, deal with things I don't like.
I understood and enjoyed your response above but would like to know your perspective on the long-term implications of tolerating the government's endorsements of a religious belief. Could such seemingly mild infractions of church/state separation accumulate and intensify over time to eventually produce a scenario where more severe discrimination against non-theists is perceived as a legal and patriotic obligation?

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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #5

Post by Purple Knight »

bluegreenearth wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:39 pmI understood and enjoyed your response above but would like to know your perspective on the long-term implications of tolerating the government's endorsements of a religious belief. Could such seemingly mild infractions of church/state separation accumulate and intensify over time to eventually produce a scenario where more severe discrimination against non-theists is perceived as a legal and patriotic obligation?
It could. And since as atheists we don't believe in any spiritual baloney we're welcome to lie and say we're Christians. There is nothing at stake for us. I don't think freedom of conscience was created for us, and I don't think we're in need of it.

And if we choose instead not to indulge them and to make the sacrifice and stand up for what we believe in, let us pay for that with whatever the world demands. The price is the price. If you want to pay it, if you think it's worth it, do it. If not, don't.

One man gave his life on the cross and now Christianity is a thing. Nobody's going to notice whether you do or don't pay $25. Just saying.

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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #6

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:53 pm It's not forcing. Pay the fee.

In the past you were often simply killed if you didn't say you believed in their god(s) and swear all kinds of oaths that are probably spiritually binding if any of this nonsense happens to be real.

Future people are spoilt rotten. Holy flaming carpdragons. The crusades, anyone? Pay the $25 and opt out. Be glad of that option. Be glad it's a license plate that says something you don't agree with instead of literally swear fealty or die.
So, youd cave to folks who'd steal and murder your pets, now you'd cave to Christians demanding you spread their message, or pay a fine - and that's what it is, a fine.

I'll leave the remainder of your post alone, as it seems to me you prefer to allow others to run roughshod over anyone they want.
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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #7

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:56 pm ...
One man gave his life on the cross and now Christianity is a thing. Nobody's going to notice whether you do or don't pay $25. Just saying.
Did you not read the part where that $25 is not expected from theists, but required if folks don't wanna be tools of theist ideology?
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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #8

Post by Tcg »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:56 pm
And since as atheists we don't believe in any spiritual baloney we're welcome to lie and say we're Christians.
Wow. That's a definition of atheists I've not heard before. Those who are welcome to lie. I thought it was those who lack belief in god/gods. I've never lied and said that I'm a Christian nor would I. Perhaps one's willingness to lie has nothing to do with being an atheist. Just a hunch on my part.


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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #9

Post by Purple Knight »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:06 amSo, you'd cave to folks who'd steal and murder your pets, now you'd cave to Christians demanding you spread their message, or pay a fine - and that's what it is, a fine.
I remain consistent in saying the law is probably wrong. Those who deface their license plates to remove the message, even if this is illegal, I would support them as being moral.

I just don't think the law should give the same kind of coddling and walking on eggshells and perpetually bending over backwards to atheists as religious people need. Let them have their special separate school meals on our dime. Let them have the law lick their boots for them. Leave the crying and whining about being exposed to things one doesn't like to them. Let us atheists take our medicine in silence. It honestly bothers me that anyone would complain about this, which now has me complaining about the complaining, and thus taking part in it.
Tcg wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:16 am
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:56 pm
And since as atheists we don't believe in any spiritual baloney we're welcome to lie and say we're Christians.
Wow. That's a definition of atheists I've not heard before. Those who are welcome to lie. I thought it was those who lack belief in god/gods. I've never lied and said that I'm a Christian nor would I. Perhaps one's willingness to lie has nothing to do with being an atheist. Just a hunch on my part.
I didn't define an atheist as welcome to lie, I just said we are welcome to lie. As in, we're not going to Hell for lying. I also didn't say we should; it's up to each of us.

Freedom of conscience was created so religious people don't have to serve two masters. Presumably it has something to do with the fact that they think they are going to Hell if they disobey their spiritual master and follow the law.

Our consciences are just that - our consciences. They stand alone and have exactly as much value as we give them. If you think not being a theist tool is worth $25, pay it. If you think it's worth your life, be a martyr if the opportunity arises. My post simply pointed out that we don't think there is anything else at stake - no punishment frying pan and fire where we're punished no matter what we do. We can be expected to follow rules even if we don't like them, or break them and suffer the mortal consequences. Religious people think their immortal souls are at stake so I imagine they're much more bothered and they need special exceptions. Arguably the law must make way for them if their Bible says not to do all sorts of things the law forces and then says follow the law, which it actually does.

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Re: Christian forcing others to push their beliefs

Post #10

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #1]

Can you imagine the righteous fury if the shoe was on the other foot?

Standard license plate: In Zeus we trust

For a $25 fee: <no message>

I would imagine the number of Christians complaining would be deafening.

To answer the OP, no, no religious organization should get free state sponsorship/evangelization.

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