Tennessee bans atheists from office

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Tennessee bans atheists from office

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the articlehere:
Tennessean.com wrote: Preachers and atheists are both banned from holding public office by the antiquated state Constitution. State Sen. Mark Pody’s proposal to amend the Constitution unjustly seeks to bar discrimination against ministers while leaving intact the equally pernicious prohibition against atheists serving the people of Tennessee. The Senate passed the proposal unanimously in mid-April.
...
For debate:

Should theists have exclusive rights to hold public office?
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:13 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:59 pmThen ya punish double, or even fourple, those who'd restrict the rights and freedoms of others.
How do you punish them when they're not doing anything illegal?
Ya remove em from office so they can't keep adoing it.
Purple Knoght wrote: Do you stop them from discriminating against atheists, if you make a new law to stop that form of discrimination, they'll just take it out on fat people, or furries, or redheads. Now they oppress those people, while still not doing anything illegal, and then you make another new law to protect redheads, and the discriminators just take it out on yet someone else. You're not reducing oppression, you're just transferring it.
Not from within public office they won't.
Purple Dragon wrote: Now you can transfer it to where it's not as big of a deal, and I agree with protecting minorities. But you do have to stop somewhere. And I don't want to be protected if it means someone else just takes it in my stead.
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

Post #12

Post by Purple Knight »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pmYa remove em from office so they can't keep adoing it.
If by that you mean don't vote for them, of course I won't. I don't live in Tennessee, however, I won't vote for their ilk. If you mean run people out of office with force because they found legal targets for their discrimination, that would be unconstitutional. You can't punish people who aren't breaking any law. So as long as they find legal targets for their discrimination, always ceasing to discriminate against that particular group and just taking it out on somebody else when that group is protected, they're immune from reprisal.

And the thing with voting them out is... you can't. They wouldn't initiate the discrimination in the first place if they didn't have the support of the majority. If they weren't smarter than we are, we would be in office instead of them.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pmThe fight for freedom'll never end if we give us up afighting it.
Fighting smart includes not fighting losing battles. Once the majority is all for witch hunts and discrimination there's not much you can do about it. If we had the same population who struck back against Jim Crow laws simply because they were wrong, then maybe, but we don't. Instead we have a population that's so worn down by the effort of not discriminating or microaggressing against protected groups that they have absolutely no love left to give unprotected groups anything but wrath. That's not saying we shouldn't have protected groups, and that's not saying whites are by any means doing enough to combat discrimination against those protected groups, but the effort is real and it does exhaust and annoy people and cause pushback. If you spend all your love on Sally because the law says you have to, but Samantha has no such legal protection, it's just a fact of life that sometimes people who feel bullied by Sally (regardless of whether their feeling is correct) will take it out on Samantha.

You simply can't protect every group. And I'm just not for fighting people whose own stupid laws are hurting themselves more than they're hurting me. If they play discrimination hardball in Tennessee, atheists will move out, and I think that will make Tennessee worse and other areas better.

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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

Post #13

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:09 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pmYa remove em from office so they can't keep adoing it.
...
And the thing with voting them out is... you can't. They wouldn't initiate the discrimination in the first place if they didn't have the support of the majority. If they weren't smarter than we are, we would be in office instead of them.
I didn't say vote em out. We need to prosecute em for dereliction of duty.
Purple Dragon wrote:
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:45 pmThe fight for freedom'll never end if we give us up afighting it.
Fighting smart includes not fighting losing battles.
If one never begins to fight, they'll never win a battle.
Purple Dragon wrote: Once the majority is all for witch hunts and discrimination...
I don't think fighting discrimination is a witch hunt, nor do I think holding folks to their oath of office is discrimination.
Purple Dragon wrote: ...there's not much you can do about it...
The Founding Fathers'd like a word.
Purple Dragon wrote: ...
If we had the same population who struck back against Jim Crow laws simply because they were wrong, then maybe, but we don't.
Do you think a force with inferioir numbers has never brought change?
Instead we have a population that's so worn down by the effort of not discriminating or microaggressing against protected groups that they have absolutely no love left to give unprotected groups anything but wrath.
...
I don't consider defending the rights and freedoms of folks to be micromanaging.

The only group I consider "protected" are the group of humans others feel the need to prey upon.
Purple Dragon wrote: That's not saying we shouldn't have protected groups, and that's not saying whites are by any means doing enough to combat discrimination against those protected groups, but the effort is real and it does exhaust and annoy people and cause pushback. If you spend all your love on Sally because the law says you have to, but Samantha has no such legal protection, it's just a fact of life that sometimes people who feel bullied by Sally (regardless of whether their feeling is correct) will take it out on Samantha.
That's a defeatist attitude.

The struggle for human rights is a continuos effort.
Purple Dragon wrote: You simply can't protect every group. And I'm just not for fighting people whose own stupid laws are hurting themselves more than they're hurting me. If they play discrimination hardball in Tennessee, atheists will move out, and I think that will make Tennessee worse and other areas better.
Clumping folks in groups is kinda why we got us this OP.

Do you think all atheists in Tennessee have the means to just pull up roots, and plop em down elsewhere? What you're suggesting is almost, kinda, but not really, like a genocide - in that it would remove an entire population from Tennessee.

And for what? So the bigot can sleep in comfort knowing his government has removed them dang dirty atheists?
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

Post #14

Post by JoeyKnothead »

I wanted to make this post here because it ain't so much about the OP, but, well, here we go...

I do understand a certain pragmatism in what Purple Dragon proposes, but ya know, debate.

I do think the issue is very important though, and believe strongly in my position. I may use strong terms and stuff, but here I sit, safe in bed while the pretty things dreams her off to sleep. It ain't like I'm arunning me up to Tennessee with a musket in my hands.
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

Post #15

Post by Purple Knight »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmI didn't say vote em out. We need to prosecute em for dereliction of duty.
So how would that work? Either there is a mechanism for doing this and it just needs to be used. If so, good, use it. I support anyone who does. Or... there is no such mechanism and you're talking about force. You mention the Founding Fathers, and that's exactly what they did: They spurned legal (but unfair) rule and simply used force to kick their leaders to the curb. Another thing they tried to do was make sure unfair leadership could simply be ousted with force again. They tried to enshrine the right of secession. Unfortunately, that didn't work out so well for the South. I'm not defending slavery but what the South wanted to do was legal. And rightful. And they weren't able to do it.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmDo you think a force with inferior numbers has never brought change?
I think it's unlikely when so many other forces with inferior numbers but moral rectitude are in front of atheists in line for equality and justice.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmThe only group I consider "protected" are the group of humans others feel the need to prey upon.
I wish we could make the law that way. But we can't. When the law protects a group, discriminators will immediately stop victimising that group and victimise the unprotected.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmThat's a defeatist attitude.
You can see it that way if you like, but it's a fact that bullies will keep on bullying and they're smart enough not to target anyone protected against bullying by law, so yes, if I get protection, someone else just takes it for me.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmThe struggle for human rights is a continuous effort.
I agree, but there are simply bigger fish to fry. Minorities are still being oppressed. They have to take precedence. Each person only has so much fight in them, and it should all be used where it's most needed.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmDo you think all atheists in Tennessee have the means to just pull up roots, and plop em down elsewhere? What you're suggesting is almost, kinda, but not really, like a genocide - in that it would remove an entire population from Tennessee.

And for what? So the bigot can sleep in comfort knowing his government has removed them dang dirty atheists?
No, but I think the trend will be for atheists to flee the state, and for atheists who pull up roots from elsewhere and do have means, to give Tennessee a hard pass. Because this trend only affects honest atheists who won't just lie and say they're Christian, overall, Tennessee will become less honest. Let's just see how well that works out for them.

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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

Post #16

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:52 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmI didn't say vote em out. We need to prosecute em for dereliction of duty.
So how would that work? Either there is a mechanism for doing this and it just needs to be used. If so, good, use it. I support anyone who does.
I can only hope the voters, or maybe the legislature can run em off.
Or... there is no such mechanism and you're talking about force.
Not at this time.
You mention the Founding Fathers, and that's exactly what they did: They spurned legal (but unfair) rule and simply used force to kick their leaders to the curb. Another thing they tried to do was make sure unfair leadership could simply be ousted with force again. They tried to enshrine the right of secession.
Exactly, at some undefined point people being oppressed should fight back.
Unfortunately, that didn't work out so well for the South. I'm not defending slavery but what the South wanted to do was legal. And rightful. And they weren't able to do it.
As much as I love being from jere, I gotta say I'm glad we lost that one. Slavery is wrong.

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmDo you think a force with inferior numbers has never brought change?
I think it's unlikely when so many other forces with inferior numbers but moral rectitude are in front of atheists in line for equality and justice.
So we line us up with those bunches.

[/quote]
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmThe only group I consider "protected" are the group of humans others feel the need to prey upon.
I wish we could make the law that way. But we can't. When the law protects a group, discriminators will immediately stop victimising that group and victimise the unprotected.
[/quote]
Yeah, roacjhes'll scatter. Gotta figuratively squish em everyone when ya find em.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmThat's a defeatist attitude.
You can see it that way if you like, but it's a fact that bullies will keep on bullying and they're smart enough not to target anyone protected against bullying by law, so yes, if I get protection, someone else just takes it for me.
[/quote]
They for sure'll keep bullying if nobody standa up to em.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmThe struggle for human rights is a continuous effort.
I agree, but there are simply bigger fish to fry. Minorities are still being oppressed. They have to take precedence. Each person only has so much fight in them, and it should all be used where it's most needed.
Like before, we should seek alliances based on common ideals.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:50 pmDo you think all atheists in Tennessee have the means to just pull up roots, and plop em down elsewhere? What you're suggesting is almost, kinda, but not really, like a genocide - in that it would remove an entire population from Tennessee.

And for what? So the bigot can sleep in comfort knowing his government has removed them dang dirty atheists?
No, but I think the trend will be for atheists to flee the state, and for atheists who pull up roots from elsewhere and do have means, to give Tennessee a hard pass. Because this trend only affects honest atheists who won't just lie and say they're Christian, overall, Tennessee will become less honest. Let's just see how well that works out for them.
And don't it beat all, those with higher educations trend to atheism. Tennessee does indeed face a brain drain for various reasons.
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

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JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmAs much as I love being from jere, I gotta say I'm glad we lost that one. Slavery is wrong.
Of course slavery is wrong but my point wasn't about slavery. The US never invaded any foreign countries to put a top to slavery. We don't invade Mauritania today. And by the right of secession, that's what the South was when it seceded: Another country. If it had been entirely about slavery, the North had every option to be a moral buttinski, invade the South, free the slaves, and then let the South secede. But they didn't. The right of secession was not honoured. It has nothing to do with slavery. My point was that even though the South technically had the right to be its own country, and fought for that right, they lost, and did not get that right.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmSo we line us up with those bunches.
Doing that would simply involve helping to fight the priority battles first.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmYeah, roacjhes'll scatter. Gotta figuratively squish em everyone when ya find em.
Again, you're describing force. I'm not opposed to it for dire matters but I think I am opposed to people dying to protect the rights of atheists to hold office in Tennessee when minorities are being killed in the street by police.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmThey for sure'll keep bullying if nobody standa up to em.
And the only way we can stand up to them is make a law, protecting one more group, in which case they just move on to another group. I just don't see what is improved.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmAnd don't it beat all, those with higher educations trend to atheism. Tennessee does indeed face a brain drain for various reasons.
Let them soak in it. I admit had no confidence in this idea of bad policy itself forcing its own reversal until Massachusetts lowered its taxes. I admit, I thought, they're the government, they'll find a way to pass the buck, since they literally make the laws. They'll just squeeze what they have harder. But they didn't. They ultimately reversed their policy.

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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:47 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmAs much as I love being from here, I gotta say I'm glad we lost that one. Slavery is wrong.
Of course slavery is wrong but my point wasn't about slavery. The US never invaded any foreign countries to put a top to slavery. We don't invade Mauritania today. And by the right of secession, that's what the South was when it seceded: Another country. If it had been entirely about slavery, the North had every option to be a moral buttinski, invade the South, free the slaves, and then let the South secede. But they didn't. The right of secession was not honoured. It has nothing to do with slavery. My point was that even though the South technically had the right to be its own country, and fought for that right, they lost, and did not get that right.
Great argument. I got nothing :wave:
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmSo we line us up with those bunches.
Doing that would simply involve helping to fight the priority battles first.
Then move on to the lesser priority batles.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmYeah, roacjhes'll scatter. Gotta figuratively squish em everyone when ya find em.
Again, you're describing force. I'm not opposed to it for dire matters but I think I am opposed to people dying to protect the rights of atheists to hold office in Tennessee when minorities are being killed in the street by police.
That's why I say we all bumch up againsts em in our common interests.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmThey for sure'll keep bullying if nobody standa up to em.
And the only way we can stand up to them is make a law, protecting one more group, in which case they just move on to another group. I just don't see what is improved.
The law's already there, in the Constitution.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:28 pmAnd don't it beat all, those with higher educations trend to atheism. Tennessee does indeed face a brain drain for various reasons.
Let them soak in it. I admit had no confidence in this idea of bad policy itself forcing its own reversal until Massachusetts lowered its taxes. I admit, I thought, they're the government, they'll find a way to pass the buck, since they literally make the laws. They'll just squeeze what they have harder. But they didn't. They ultimately reversed their policy.
As I mentioned in another post, I can sure preciate your pragmatic approach.

My position is to fight best I can, if it's only to engage in this debate.
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

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Post by bjs1 »

Here is a pretty good treatment of this topic:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... me-court-/

Politifact rated the claim that atheists are barred for holding office as a "Half-Truth." The language is in the state constitution, but has been invalidated by the Supreme Court and atheists have been able to hold office in Tennessee for the past 60 years.
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Re: Tennessee bans atheists from office

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

bjs1 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:17 am Here is a pretty good treatment of this topic:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... me-court-/

Politifact rated the claim that atheists are barred for holding office as a "Half-Truth." The language is in the state constitution, but has been invalidated by the Supreme Court and atheists have been able to hold office in Tennessee for the past 60 years.
Whether or not such laws are enforced, or even constitutional, they remain laws within their respective states.
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