Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

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Diogenes
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Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

To what extent do "Christian nationalism" and Covid 19 vaccination hesitancy correlate?
If there is such a correlation, is it causative? To what extent does science denial play a role?
For the purpose of this topic "Christian nationalism" is defined by agreement that the federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation?"
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #31

Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:17 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:23 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:38 pm Among other problems your post exhibits, is a woeful misunderstanding of the facts.
2000 people each day die from Covid variants, in the U.S. alone, 866,000 to date.
I never said they didn't. I said, you can't sacrifice one to save others without a good reason.
What 'sacrifice?'
The one very very rare person who will die to side-effects of the vaccination. You can't just mandate he die, and thereby sacrifice one to save many more without a good reason.

And I'm not convinced there is that good reason.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #32

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #31]

So... it's too much of a personal 'sacrifice' for you to get vaccinated or wear a mask in order to save the lives of millions?
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #33

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:34 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:17 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:23 pm
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:38 pm Among other problems your post exhibits, is a woeful misunderstanding of the facts.
2000 people each day die from Covid variants, in the U.S. alone, 866,000 to date.
I never said they didn't. I said, you can't sacrifice one to save others without a good reason.
What 'sacrifice?'
The one very very rare person who will die to side-effects of the vaccination. You can't just mandate he die, and thereby sacrifice one to save many more without a good reason.

And I'm not convinced there is that good reason.
There's no evidence that any individual is at a lower risk of death when they remain unvaccinated.

Anyone not getting vaccinated is putting themselves at huge risk, unless a doctor advises against vaccination the person is acting irrationally and have no basis other than their own hypochondria.

Its like avoiding seat belts because they might crush your ribs in a crash, these people need to get a grip.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #34

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:39 pmThere's no evidence that any individual is at a lower risk of death when they remain unvaccinated.
The evidence is that vaccines can kill. It's extremely rare but they can. And if you're mandating that everyone have the vaccine, you have mandated death for those few, few people who will have a reaction and die, and their risk of having died of covid is the same as everybody else's: Extremely low.

For those extreme few who will die of the vaccine, if you mandate the vaccine you have killed them.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:39 pmAnyone not getting vaccinated is putting themselves at huge risk, unless a doctor advises against vaccination the person is acting irrationally and have no basis other than their own hypochondria.
They're also putting themselves at a tiny risk if they get vaccinated. That's why it should be up to them which risk they choose. And I especially don't think seatbelts should be mandated since there's not a decently reasonable way you could hurt somebody else by not wearing one.

If I'm doing the right thing and wearing a seatbelt, I should be happy with my own increased safety I've bought with that, and I shouldn't be worrying about that idiot crashing, then flying out of his car through the windshield, and me being crushed by his flying body.

Even if it's unlikely, I don't believe I have the right to tell someone he must do something that might kill him. If it does kill him then I'm a murderer.

The only time I'd be for mandates that fit this formula of mandating he do something for my safety that even slightly might hurt him, is if he gained some benefit by putting me at risk, giving him a competitive advantage.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #35

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:38 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:39 pmThere's no evidence that any individual is at a lower risk of death when they remain unvaccinated.
The evidence is that vaccines can kill. It's extremely rare but they can. And if you're mandating that everyone have the vaccine, you have mandated death for those few, few people who will have a reaction and die, and their risk of having died of covid is the same as everybody else's: Extremely low.

For those extreme few who will die of the vaccine, if you mandate the vaccine you have killed them.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:39 pmAnyone not getting vaccinated is putting themselves at huge risk, unless a doctor advises against vaccination the person is acting irrationally and have no basis other than their own hypochondria.
They're also putting themselves at a tiny risk if they get vaccinated. That's why it should be up to them which risk they choose. And I especially don't think seatbelts should be mandated since there's not a decently reasonable way you could hurt somebody else by not wearing one.

If I'm doing the right thing and wearing a seatbelt, I should be happy with my own increased safety I've bought with that, and I shouldn't be worrying about that idiot crashing, then flying out of his car through the windshield, and me being crushed by his flying body.

Even if it's unlikely, I don't believe I have the right to tell someone he must do something that might kill him. If it does kill him then I'm a murderer.

The only time I'd be for mandates that fit this formula of mandating he do something for my safety that even slightly might hurt him, is if he gained some benefit by putting me at risk, giving him a competitive advantage.
Any decision could conceivably result in one's death. Decisions about vaccines are best made by consulting a doctor not people like Tucker Carlson.

If I asked you to water my garden and you got hit a few seconds later by a small meteor - did I "kill" you?

Seatbelts - just like vaccines - carry a risk, one could end up trapped in a burning car despite the fact they did not smash their skull into the windshield, as you know you must wear a seatbelt if you want to share the road with other road users.

Now bear in mind nobody is being forced or ever was forced to receive a vaccine, nobody gets arrested, held down by others and a needle forced into them.

If a person wants to participate in a society, enjoy the benefits of a social existence, visiting stores for example where other people are, then it is appropriate to impose certain restrictions on that, I'm fine with people not getting vaccinated provided they remain far away from every other person, nobody has the right to share social spaces without some conditions being in place.

Consider all those "antivaxxers" who mouthed off about their "rights" and demanded their "freedom" (to put the health of others at risk) who died while gasping "I wish, just wish I'd gotten the vaccine..."

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #36

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:12 pmIf I asked you to water my garden and you got hit a few seconds later by a small meteor - did I "kill" you?
I think so... if you forced me to do it. If you just ask I can say no. My agency is not removed and it was always my decision.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:12 pmIf a person wants to participate in a society, enjoy the benefits of a social existence, visiting stores for example where other people are, then it is appropriate to impose certain restrictions on that, I'm fine with people not getting vaccinated provided they remain far away from every other person, nobody has the right to share social spaces without some conditions being in place.
I do think it's a completely fair point that as people benefit from society, society is perfectly right and reasonable to take some actions and impose some restrictions, primarily to exclude leeches and free riders, but for other reasonable reasons as well. I didn't say you can't kill that one person, I think society can decide to do that, I just said I didn't think it was permissible without a good reason.

However, I do also think I'm right to question that reason when the logic is, we must take pains so these very few vulnerable don't die, and when I can turn around and make the same argument with even fewer who are even more vulnerable and will die to the vaccine.

Some argument can be made that it's to save as many as possible. I'm simply rejecting it because I don't think you can trade one life for a thousand without a good reason, and I don't see that good reason. I simply don't see what it serves to kill the one fellow that will die to the vaccine in exchange for saving the thousand or ten thousand or two million that would die unless you mandate the vaccine. Most of them are people who, as you point out, just chose not to vaccinate and later regretted it. I'm simply not willing to trade even one life so that these stubborn people can avoid the Darwin Award they rightfully won.

To me, having vaccines available and in most cases, free, is the ideal situation. This way, people are reaping the consequences of their own decisions and nothing more.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #37

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:12 pmIf I asked you to water my garden and you got hit a few seconds later by a small meteor - did I "kill" you?
I think so... if you forced me to do it. If you just ask I can say no. My agency is not removed and it was always my decision.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:12 pmIf a person wants to participate in a society, enjoy the benefits of a social existence, visiting stores for example where other people are, then it is appropriate to impose certain restrictions on that, I'm fine with people not getting vaccinated provided they remain far away from every other person, nobody has the right to share social spaces without some conditions being in place.
I do think it's a completely fair point that as people benefit from society, society is perfectly right and reasonable to take some actions and impose some restrictions, primarily to exclude leeches and free riders, but for other reasonable reasons as well. I didn't say you can't kill that one person, I think society can decide to do that, I just said I didn't think it was permissible without a good reason.

However, I do also think I'm right to question that reason when the logic is, we must take pains so these very few vulnerable don't die, and when I can turn around and make the same argument with even fewer who are even more vulnerable and will die to the vaccine.

Some argument can be made that it's to save as many as possible. I'm simply rejecting it because I don't think you can trade one life for a thousand without a good reason, and I don't see that good reason. I simply don't see what it serves to kill the one fellow that will die to the vaccine in exchange for saving the thousand or ten thousand or two million that would die unless you mandate the vaccine. Most of them are people who, as you point out, just chose not to vaccinate and later regretted it. I'm simply not willing to trade even one life so that these stubborn people can avoid the Darwin Award they rightfully won.

To me, having vaccines available and in most cases, free, is the ideal situation. This way, people are reaping the consequences of their own decisions and nothing more.
I did mention also that nobody is being or has been forced to get a vaccine against their will, certainly not in the US.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #38

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:32 am I did mention also that nobody is being or has been forced to get a vaccine against their will, certainly not in the US.
No, but I think mandating that businesses force their employees to vaccinate is overstepping. I don't have a problem with businesses doing this on their own as long as there are other businesses that don't. Most people will want the vaccinated businesses and the unvaccinated ones will have a harder time.

Even if there get to be unvaccinated slums where people live when they don't want the vaccine, I'm okay with it (I think we agree that probabilistically, they're doing the wrong thing) as long as they can live and mandates (wherever they come from) don't essentially impose starvation on them.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #39

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:44 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:32 am I did mention also that nobody is being or has been forced to get a vaccine against their will, certainly not in the US.
No, but I think mandating that businesses force their employees to vaccinate is overstepping. I don't have a problem with businesses doing this on their own as long as there are other businesses that don't. Most people will want the vaccinated businesses and the unvaccinated ones will have a harder time.

Even if there get to be unvaccinated slums where people live when they don't want the vaccine, I'm okay with it (I think we agree that probabilistically, they're doing the wrong thing) as long as they can live and mandates (wherever they come from) don't essentially impose starvation on them.
Right but nobody is being forced to receive a vaccine that's my point.

You can't drive without obtaining a license. You could end up dead though if you were taking driving lessons and a crazed pickup truck crashed into you head on. If the risk of being killed while taking driving lessons is too much for you then you choose to not drive, same thing, license is mandated yet carries a risk, vaccines are mandated yet carry a risk, in each case you can choose, nobody's forced to take driving lessons and nobody's forced to take a vaccine.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #40

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:12 pmIf the risk of being killed while taking driving lessons is too much for you then you choose to not drive, same thing, license is mandated yet carries a risk, vaccines are mandated yet carry a risk, in each case you can choose, nobody's forced to take driving lessons and nobody's forced to take a vaccine.
As long as what you lose does not mandate your death, then that's fine. They can get a job closer to their houses and bike to work. It's fine for people to be inconvenienced because they make that choice, even severely so. But locking them in their houses until they starve is not permissible because that's just killing them.

If one of the things society chooses to do is surround everybody's house with roads so that you must drive to get across, then it must let everyone drive.

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