Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

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Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

To what extent do "Christian nationalism" and Covid 19 vaccination hesitancy correlate?
If there is such a correlation, is it causative? To what extent does science denial play a role?
For the purpose of this topic "Christian nationalism" is defined by agreement that the federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation?"

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

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Still trying to get my head around why there is so much Covid-19 vaccination hesitancy. Recent studies may shed light on the issue. They found a strong correlation between "Christian nationalism" and vaccine avoidance.
What is "Christian nationalism?"
'To measure Christian nationalism, respondents were asked “To what extent do you agree or disagree that the federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation?" Response choices were the same as for COVID-19 vaccine confidence.'
Studies conclude:
"Christian nationalism’s anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti-government intervention, pro-Trump ideology with a focus on protecting one’s own freedoms at the expense of protecting medically vulnerable people makes it the perfect storm for COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8489517/

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #3

Post by Kenisaw »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:11 pm To what extent do "Christian nationalism" and Covid 19 vaccination hesitancy correlate?
If there is such a correlation, is it causative? To what extent does science denial play a role?
For the purpose of this topic "Christian nationalism" is defined by agreement that the federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation?"
Vaccine hesitancy seems to come from the obvious fact that the COVID shot is not a vaccine and does prevent the infection from or transmission of the virus.

It should be no surprise to anyone that people that share common experiences, live in the same place, and consider certain things to be true or false will tend to think the same way. The connection that you should be looking for, and is rather obvious when you stop and give it a think, is who is more likely to distrust the government in general and/or wants a less powerful centralized government? Conservative, working class, blacks, and religious people all fit that mold, and those groups are indeed less likely to get the jab based on polling that I've seen.

Side note - I don't know of anyone who is a Christian that thinks America should be declared a "Christian nation". Just the opposite in fact - they want the government to leave them alone.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #4

Post by Diogenes »

Kenisaw wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:24 am
Vaccine hesitancy seems to come from the obvious fact that the COVID shot is not a vaccine and does prevent the infection from or transmission of the virus.

It should be no surprise to anyone that people that share common experiences, live in the same place, and consider certain things to be true or false will tend to think the same way. The connection that you should be looking for, and is rather obvious when you stop and give it a think, is who is more likely to distrust the government in general and/or wants a less powerful centralized government? Conservative, working class, blacks, and religious people all fit that mold, and those groups are indeed less likely to get the jab based on polling that I've seen.

Side note - I don't know of anyone who is a Christian that thinks America should be declared a "Christian nation". Just the opposite in fact - they want the government to leave them alone.
You wrote "Vaccine hesitancy seems to come from the obvious fact that the COVID shot is not a vaccine and does prevent the infection from or transmission of the virus." I assume you meant "does [NOT] prevent" instead of "does prevent."

In any event, almost everything you wrote is wrong and your personal knowledge is irrelevant. One need not rely on government for information. You can read the actual, peer reviewed data which proves the obvious, that the mNRA vaccines for Covid-19 are highly effective and very safe.

Type this into your browser and read them yourself, "independent studies confirm covid mnra vaccines highly effective" For example
"Clinical trials have shown that COVID-19 vaccines are remarkably effective in protecting those age 12 and up against infection by the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2."
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/0 ... s-confirm/
and
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01583-4
"Our findings show robust effectiveness for both BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 in preventing Delta hospitalization and death in Qatar’s population, despite lower effectiveness in preventing infection, particularly for the BNT162b2 vaccine."

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #5

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Even prestigious Christian organizations and divinity schools recognize the threat of white Christian nationalism.

White Christian nationalism in the United States is radicalizing, warns Yale Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies Philip Gorski in the latest Yale Divinity School podcast episode.
Philip Gorski
“It is moving in an increasingly authoritarian direction,” Gorski said. “You see this not just in the willingness of some to engage in violence, but also in the willingness of some to call into question the basic mechanisms of democracy.”

https://divinity.yale.edu/news/threat-w ... ds-podcast

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #6

Post by Kenisaw »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:57 pm
Kenisaw wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:24 am
Vaccine hesitancy seems to come from the obvious fact that the COVID shot is not a vaccine and does prevent the infection from or transmission of the virus.

It should be no surprise to anyone that people that share common experiences, live in the same place, and consider certain things to be true or false will tend to think the same way. The connection that you should be looking for, and is rather obvious when you stop and give it a think, is who is more likely to distrust the government in general and/or wants a less powerful centralized government? Conservative, working class, blacks, and religious people all fit that mold, and those groups are indeed less likely to get the jab based on polling that I've seen.

Side note - I don't know of anyone who is a Christian that thinks America should be declared a "Christian nation". Just the opposite in fact - they want the government to leave them alone.
You wrote "Vaccine hesitancy seems to come from the obvious fact that the COVID shot is not a vaccine and does prevent the infection from or transmission of the virus." I assume you meant "does [NOT] prevent" instead of "does prevent."
Yes, you assume correctly. My apologies for the typo.
In any event, almost everything you wrote is wrong and your personal knowledge is irrelevant. One need not rely on government for information. You can read the actual, peer reviewed data which proves the obvious, that the mNRA vaccines for Covid-19 are highly effective and very safe.

Type this into your browser and read them yourself, "independent studies confirm covid mnra vaccines highly effective" For example
"Clinical trials have shown that COVID-19 vaccines are remarkably effective in protecting those age 12 and up against infection by the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2."
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/0 ... s-confirm/
and
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01583-4
"Our findings show robust effectiveness for both BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 in preventing Delta hospitalization and death in Qatar’s population, despite lower effectiveness in preventing infection, particularly for the BNT162b2 vaccine."
Let's start with the dictionary. Always good to make sure we have the same understanding of terms, don't you think? A vaccine is defined as something that "confers immunity". Immunity, of course, means to be protected from something, that is has no effect on someone.

Gibraltar, with a "vaccination" rate of over 100% (33,000 population, 94,000 doses administered so far), is seeing a spike in COVID cases.
https://news.yahoo.com/gibraltar-cancel ... 44274.html
Portugal, 89% fully "vaccinated", also seeing a spike (as is the rest of Europe) - 5,700 cases alone on 12/21/21.
https://www.wionews.com/world/portugal- ... eat-439051
Check out the map in this Guardian article showing cases per 1 million people over the last 14 days. This is cases per 1 million people mind you.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... oss-europe
Article from 10/7/21, so a little older, but makes the point that higher vaccinated areas (countries, or counties in the United States) have higher rates of transmission.
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/20 ... udy-shows/

What, precisely, is the COVID shot "highly effective" at, Dio? Look at the numbers in these articles. If this was a "vaccine", people who got it would not be catching COVID, and they would not be shedding the virus at basically the same rate as people with COVID who did not get the shot. 98% of "people eligible to get the vaccine" in Portugal have done so according to a 10/1/21 New York Times piece. Even if someone wants to claim (which isn't true) that every one of the 5,700 people on 12/21/21 that tested positive in Portugal did not get the shot, the virus still shouldn't be spreading because 98% is herd immunity territory. The "unvaccinated" simply would not be able to run into enough other "unvaccinated" humans to cause the huge rate on increase that they are seeing in Portugal and many other places across the globe. Between natural immunity and the jab, these things should not be happening IF the shot was a vaccination.

The yellow fever vaccine provides immunity against that virus. Over 99% of people receive lifetime immunity. Don't take my word for it, look it up. MMR (mumps, measles, rubella) provides immunity against those viruses, 99% for rubella, 97% for measles, and 88% for mumps over a lifetime. Don't take my word for it, look it up. Polio? Basically 100%, lifetime. Effecacy of the COVID shot? After six months it is estimated in some literature to be as low as 30%.

But I will steel man your comment and note that it does appear that the COVID jab does reduce the severity of COVID for some. So is it worth it then? Well, let's look at the second part of your claim - that it is "safe".

Severe reactions to MMR vaccine? One in a million, no deaths from the vaccine that I could find. Yellow fever? 8 per million, around 50 deaths. Polio? 3 per million, about 10-15 deaths from the vaccine. Swine flu vaccine deaths (and that vaccine got pulled the same year it came out) - 53. Please note that MMR has been out since the 1960s, Polio since the 1940s, and Yellow Fever since 1903.

Deaths from the COVID shot, per VAERS data as of 12/20/21, for shots that have not yet been around a year? In the United States alone - 10,483. All other vaccine reported deaths in the US from 1990-present? - 5,221. The swine flu vaccine was pulled because 53 people had died. We are approaching 11,000. Safe? This product meets no safety standard in the entire history of any government agency in America.
(Here's a breakdown of VAERS data at a different website) https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/12/25/v ... 2-17-2021/

Clearly this shot is NOT a vaccine, and it is NOT safe. I didn't even get in to the average number of myocarditis cases per year in the US in those under 25 (around 300) verses the 11,000 cases reported this year in just the VAERS system (which probably translates into about 50,000 total cases in the country per Dr Peter McCollough).

Another little tidbit, if you have the time - VAERS underestimates deaths from the vaccine
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ality_risk

I look forward to your reply....

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #7

Post by Kenisaw »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:02 pm Even prestigious Christian organizations and divinity schools recognize the threat of white Christian nationalism.

White Christian nationalism in the United States is radicalizing, warns Yale Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies Philip Gorski in the latest Yale Divinity School podcast episode.
Philip Gorski
“It is moving in an increasingly authoritarian direction,” Gorski said. “You see this not just in the willingness of some to engage in violence, but also in the willingness of some to call into question the basic mechanisms of democracy.”

https://divinity.yale.edu/news/threat-w ... ds-podcast
One dude from Yale is not "organizations" and "divinity schools", especially when Yale has become a cesspool of liberal arts social justice activism like many college campuses across the country. The guy blames "white men", a typical leftist talking point, along with other baseless claims like "white nationalism" and "racism". The "deadly Jan 6th insurrection" - another socialeft trope. Alec Baldwin has killed more people than any of the protestors on Jan 6th....

Please tell me you aren't drinking the CRT kool aid Dio...


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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #9

Post by Difflugia »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amLet's start with the dictionary. Always good to make sure we have the same understanding of terms, don't you think? A vaccine is defined as something that "confers immunity". Immunity, of course, means to be protected from something, that is has no effect on someone.
Did you actually check a dictionary? If not, you probably should have.

Image

The term "vaccine" was coined specifically for Jenner's smallpox vaccine, which was itself derived from cowpox. "Cow" in Latin is vacca. While this is a rather unimportant bit of misinformation compared to the other things you're wrong about, it does certainly set the tone for the rest of your screed.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amGibraltar, with a "vaccination" rate of over 100% (33,000 population, 94,000 doses administered so far), is seeing a spike in COVID cases.
I'm not sure how this works out in your head, but COVID-19 is particularly virulent. The 75% effectiveness against the Omicron variant versus those unvaccinated means that some vaccinated people will still become infected, so even fully vaccinated populations will see spikes compared to pre-Omicron rates of infection.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amArticle from 10/7/21, so a little older, but makes the point that higher vaccinated areas (countries, or counties in the United States) have higher rates of transmission.
The important information would be to compare rates of infection and morbidity within a population based on vaccine status. We have those data. Every possible comparison points to vaccince effectiveness, but if I have to distill it to a Fox News length sound bite:
Unvaccinated patients accounted for 91.0% (91/100) of deaths among patients with COVID-19 in this study.
Assuming an overall 50% rate of vaccination, not being vaccinated makes one ten times more likely to die from COVID-19. Average vaccination rate is higher than 50%.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amWhat, precisely, is the COVID shot "highly effective" at, Dio? Look at the numbers in these articles.
Keeping people from being infected by COVID-19 (NYC Department of Health data) and keeping those infected from dying (JAMA article data).
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amIf this was a "vaccine", people who got it would not be catching COVID, and they would not be shedding the virus at basically the same rate as people with COVID who did not get the shot.
Your question is a literal non sequitur based on your faulty definition of "vaccine" and incorrect data, but I know what you're getting at. Even if we were to assume that your numbers were correct and representative, simple infection rate isn't the only measure of success. Nobody worries about the common cold because nobody dies from it, even though lots of people are infected and "shed virus." A vaccine that renders COVID-19 less dangerous is still effective. What baffles me is why ultra-conservative news outlets continue to misrepresent what's going on. What's the long game? Is there even a long game?
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 am98% of "people eligible to get the vaccine" in Portugal have done so according to a 10/1/21 New York Times piece. Even if someone wants to claim (which isn't true) that every one of the 5,700 people on 12/21/21 that tested positive in Portugal did not get the shot, the virus still shouldn't be spreading because 98% is herd immunity territory.
The problems with your analysis are a misunderstanding of variant evolution and the distinction between local vs. global numbers. New variants exist and are spreading because they've evolved some mechanism of vaccine resistance, similar to antibiotic resistance (I didn't ask, but I assume you think that's real; I hope so). The herd immunity calculation is based on the base rate of effectiveness for an individual. By their nature, new variants change that. An area with herd immunity to the original strain won't produce a variant because the pool of infected people is statistically too small to do so. A nearby population that wears red hats and listens to Sean Hannity, however, will lack that herd immunity. Natural selection being what it is, variants that infect more people, including vaccinated people, will be selected for.

Interestingly, what seems to be happening is that by being a population that sustains infection, the unvaccinated created a space in which the COVID-19 virus could "experiment," resulting in a virus that can travel in the vaccinated population with severely reduced morbidity, but still retains much of its virulence in the unvaccinated population. You've been co-opted into the long game of the virus. How does that feel?
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amThe "unvaccinated" simply would not be able to run into enough other "unvaccinated" humans to cause the huge rate on increase that they are seeing in Portugal and many other places across the globe.
If either the entire world were vaccinated to that rate or there were no way to communicate new variants to Portugal, that would be true. Neither of those is true, though.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amBetween natural immunity and the jab, these things should not be happening IF the shot was a vaccination.
That's nice, dear.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amThe yellow fever vaccine provides immunity against that virus. Over 99% of people receive lifetime immunity. Don't take my word for it, look it up. MMR (mumps, measles, rubella) provides immunity against those viruses, 99% for rubella, 97% for measles, and 88% for mumps over a lifetime. Don't take my word for it, look it up. Polio? Basically 100%, lifetime. Effecacy of the COVID shot? After six months it is estimated in some literature to be as low as 30%.
If protection wanes, how does that help your argument? What argument are you actually making? If the vaccine doesn't provide protection (as you seem to have been asserting earlier), how would a reduction in protection even be measurable?
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amBut I will steel man your comment and note that it does appear that the COVID jab does reduce the severity of COVID for some. So is it worth it then? Well, let's look at the second part of your claim - that it is "safe".
Yes. Steel man the argument.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amSevere reactions to MMR vaccine? One in a million, no deaths from the vaccine that I could find. Yellow fever? 8 per million, around 50 deaths. Polio? 3 per million, about 10-15 deaths from the vaccine. Swine flu vaccine deaths (and that vaccine got pulled the same year it came out) - 53. Please note that MMR has been out since the 1960s, Polio since the 1940s, and Yellow Fever since 1903.

Deaths from the COVID shot, per VAERS data as of 12/20/21, for shots that have not yet been around a year? In the United States alone - 10,483.
The virus is currently killing about that many people per week, more than 90% of which haven't been vaccinated. If everyone were vaccinated right now and the vaccine killed another 10,000 people, in just over two weeks, more lives would have been saved by the vaccine than it has ever killed.

People that can't don't understand risk analysis (or just can't do math) make the same argument against seat belts. Occasionally a seat belt causes a death that wouldn't have happened. Your odds of surviving an accidenct are much, much greater overall if you wear one, though.

Before the MMR vaccine, measles killed about 6000 Americans every year. If the vaccine killed even an appreciable fraction of that, it wouldn't have been approved. COVID-19 has killed over 800,000 Americans to date and statistically has prevented 1.1 million deaths. This is the same moral dilemma as killing one person by diverting a train car to save ten people, except it's a hundred people. It's unfortunate that the COVID-19 vaccine is more dangerous than the MMR and it would be nice if the ratio were much higher, but even so, most gamblers consider 100:1 to be a sure thing.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amClearly this shot is NOT a vaccine,
This is still making me chuckle.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amand it is NOT safe.
That depends on your definition and understanding of statistics, but regardless, getting the vaccine is about a hundred times less not safe than not getting the vaccine.
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amI didn't even get in to the average number of myocarditis cases...
Thank the gods!
Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amAnother little tidbit, if you have the time - VAERS underestimates deaths from the vaccine
By a factor of 100?
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 amClearly this shot is NOT a vaccine, and it is NOT safe.
I don't have to agree to believe that you have the right to think that, and you have the right to assess your own risks and benefits and choose for yourself.

If I tell you, you are wrong, and you have an obligation to vaccinate so I don't get sick... then frankly, where do I get off doing that?

That's like asking you to quit your job and stay off the road for the tiny benefit I experience because I might otherwise get into an accident with you one day. I can argue that your job isn't a benefit to you, but it doesn't matter if I'm right or not because you're the one who gets to assess whether it is or not.

This is a competitive society, not a cooperative one. Our society is built on people making their own judgments and having people rewarded or punished by the natural consequences of that. If you're right, your survival rate is improved, and if you're wrong, your survival rate is diminished and mine improves. That should well satisfy me if I really believe I'm correct.

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