Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

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Diogenes
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Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

To what extent do "Christian nationalism" and Covid 19 vaccination hesitancy correlate?
If there is such a correlation, is it causative? To what extent does science denial play a role?
For the purpose of this topic "Christian nationalism" is defined by agreement that the federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation?"
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

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Post by Difflugia »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:12 pmThat's like asking you to quit your job and stay off the road for the tiny benefit I experience because I might otherwise get into an accident with you one day.
It's more like asking someone to not drive drunk because of the increased risk of death from drunk driving accidents overall. You may still put them in the same category and consider drunk driving laws to be unreasonable, but let's at least not rhetorically minimize the risks involved.
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #12

Post by Diogenes »

The very strange thing is that the evidence is overwhelming that the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are very effective, pose practically no risk, and greatly decrease the risk of hospitalization and death from the various SARS-2 viruses. Yet some still make these wild claims with ZERO evidence to support their wild claims.

How does such a thing happen? How do facts, easily ascertainable facts, get so twisted and distorted?

An old client and friend came by today, banging on my door. He was desperate for help. I was surprised he was not wearing a mask and was not vaccinated. I let him in anyway, insisting he wore a mask while I sat 10 feet away. We discussed his current concerns and his anti vax views. I explained how the mRNA vaccines only signal our bodies to produce antibodies; that they contain no part of the virus. He trusts me, and only because he does he assured me he will get the vaccine.
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #13

Post by Purple Knight »

Difflugia wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:44 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:12 pmThat's like asking you to quit your job and stay off the road for the tiny benefit I experience because I might otherwise get into an accident with you one day.
It's more like asking someone to not drive drunk because of the increased risk of death from drunk driving accidents overall. You may still put them in the same category and consider drunk driving laws to be unreasonable, but let's at least not rhetorically minimize the risks involved.
I would if there were harsher penalties for causing accidents to make people self-assess that risk accurately, or if there were a significant segment of research, or a significant amount of people, who believed (and had acted upon the belief prior to there being cars) that you need to be slightly buzzed all the time or else you might get some sickness. Nobody got flu shots before and it was always their choice. I never got flu shots because two of my ex-wife's relatives kept getting them and kept getting the flu from them. I also know as an animal breeder that some of the vaccines routinely given to cats are unsafe and I don't give them. The feline leukemia vaccine is the biggest offender. It doesn't protect fully, can give you (you, the cat who receives it) the disease, and can cause cancerous tumours, and can cause an allergic reaction so severe that you stop being able to breathe and die.

I can't speak to the covid vaccine except to say it is very troubling that the makers are indemnified against harm it might cause. That anyone should be forced to take a jab when the person jabbing them could legally fill it with poison and be immune from reprisal disgusts me. I don't think it is poison, and if it were literal cyanide something might be done about it, but it could easily be made in such a way as to say it was a whoops and still hurt people. I just think that when you're allowing legal immunity, you definitely have to let people assess their own risks.

I have argued against Libertarians who think the government has no business preventing drunk driving. Some of their better points were:
1. Suppose someone is a poor driver and another person is a very good driver, such that person A is as much of a risk sober as person B drunk, then, you must either prohibit person A regardless or let person B drive drunk.
2. Actual nonconsent. Suppose someone wants to drive drunk and is okay with the increased risk from others driving drunk.
3. Imposing risks on others isn't aggression. Nobody can unilaterally decide some action you take risks them and punish you. Punish after the harm. That's the only way to avoid armchair tyrants crying, "That risks me!" and preventing all actions. Who gets to assess whether you're risking him? You. If you hurt him you make him whole and you pay. (In this situation Libertarians would probably be for a class-action lawsuit against the unvaccinated. If it's even likely they caused harm - civil court, no burden of absolute proof - they pay.)

It's a good thing that nobody really thinks not being drunk is a risk. Everyone agrees drinking is only for enjoyment, and everyone also agrees that in this case, enjoyment < lives... though they don't think so in every case... and in a world where there were people who wanted that enjoyment more than they cared about the risk, I would just have to accept that not being drunk on the road still benefits me even if everyone else is drunk and take the smaller benefit and be happy with it.

I would only cry foul if they're hitting me because they're drunk and getting away with it. In other words, if it went beyond the assess-your-own-risk and if lawmakers artificially reduced the risks to the risk-takers with my money. That's leeching. I call shenanigans on leeching.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

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Post by thomasdixon »

I believe these vaccines are nothing more than a very small dose of the virus. This small dose activates your antibody defense.

8-)

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #15

Post by Diogenes »

Kenisaw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:36 am Another little tidbit, if you have the time - VAERS underestimates deaths from the vaccine
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ality_risk

I look forward to your reply....
Talk about drinking the Kool-Aid. Researchgate is a bogus source. You fell for it. The "research" they publish is not peer reviewed. No verifiable data is substantiated. One of the 'authors' claims to be a psychiatrist, not a medical researcher in virology. "Herb Sellligman" is a fictitious person. He has no email, photo, or other published credentials. https://scholar.google.com/citations?us ... AAAJ&hl=en

You only offer bogus, imaginary _____ to try to support your nonsense, thus showing you are peddling rubbish.
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #16

Post by Diogenes »

thomasdixon wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:25 pm I believe these vaccines are nothing more than a very small dose of the virus. This small dose activates your antibody defense.

8-)
What YOU believe is irrelevant. How do you get your information? By guessing? Or do you just repeat your beliefs with ZERO research?
https://www.chop.edu/video/how-mrna-vaccines-work

"MYTH: The mRNA vaccine is not considered a vaccine.

FACT: mRNA vaccines, such as Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna, work differently than other types of vaccines, but they still trigger an immune response inside your body.
COVID-19 vaccines do not change or interact with your DNA in any way.

This type of vaccine is new, but research and development on it has been underway for decades.

The mRNA vaccines do not contain any live virus. Instead, they work by teaching our cells to make a harmless piece of a “spike protein,” which is found on the surface of the virus that causes COVID-19. After making the protein piece, cells display it on their surface. Our immune system then recognizes that it does not belong there and responds to get rid of it. When an immune response begins, antibodies are produced, creating the same response that happens in a natural infection."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... %20surface.
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #17

Post by Diogenes »

Those who refuse to get vaccinated are either claiming they know more than the medical researchers and their own physicians or they are willfully risking their health and ours for some political or other non scientific reason.

By not getting vaccinated they allow the virus to continue to have an expansive breeding ground so that it can get more dangerous or more contagious, or both. This is irresponsible and immoral. Even Donald Trump, who is singularly responsible for the size of this pandemic by ridiculing masks, vaccines, and the pandemic itself ["it will be gone by April [2020]], now (finally) recommends vaccination.

You can believe fake news or you can trust the experts.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... ersus-fact
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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #18

Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:53 am Those who refuse to get vaccinated are either claiming they know more than the medical researchers and their own physicians or they are willfully risking their health and ours for some political or other non scientific reason.
Diseases are a fact of life and people don't have an obligation to protect you from them. It's nice if they want to do so, but they don't have to. If the vaccine truly offers protective effects, you can take it and enjoy them. If you're going to die from a common disease, you can get in a sanitary plastic bubble.

But if you want people to be nice to you, you have to earn it by being nice to them. We live in a world where nobody's nice to eachother and everybody nonetheless demands niceness under the pretence of it being some sort of right. You see, the niceness I want from you, I am actually entitled to, but the niceness you want from me, sorry, not a real right, I don't have to do it, so I won't, too bad, so sad, that's just how rights work.

People who make arguments like this (not accusing anyone here of doing that) simply fail to see that rights are only developed so that both parties benefit. If you've constructed rights in such a way that they force people to do things for you and don't give them any benefit, those aren't real rights. And there's no, well, the chips just fell that way, the rights have already been enumerated, precisely because this pandemic stuff is all new territory. Never before has the world been so populous or interconnected as to allow diseases to spread like this. We've already violated the previously enumerated rights by forcing businesses closed and essentially locking people in their houses.

When breaking new ground, if everyone is going to be greedy, constructing only the rights that benefit them, we're going to get a world that is less and less nice until the idea that people should be forced not to murder one another is a utopian fantasy.

You can enforce about 5% more niceness than exists naturally. This is a process, and I call it civilisation. We can always make progress. That's what it means to be a progressive. We can always make this new law that gives force to what most people want to do anyway. Those who don't agree will comply or they'll become prisoners and they'll be out of the population. When you try enforcing 50% more niceness than exists naturally, you're going to get horrible pushback and maybe even violence that drops the level of niceness far below what it would have been if you just hadn't pushed those people.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #19

Post by The Barbarian »

Kenisaw wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:24 am Vaccine hesitancy seems to come from the obvious fact that the COVID shot is not a vaccine and does prevent the infection from or transmission of the virus.
It fits the definition of a vaccine.
Side note - I don't know of anyone who is a Christian that thinks America should be declared a "Christian nation". Just the opposite in fact - they want the government to leave them alone.
That certainly would be the Christian position which BTW, our Constitution requires. But there are people who profess to be Christians, who seek "dominion" over our nation in the name of God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology

Jesus made it abundantly clear that God neither wants nor needs a government handout. But some don't agree with Him on that.

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Re: Correlation Between "Christian Nationalism" and Covid 19 Vaccination Hesitancy

Post #20

Post by Diogenes »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:46 pm
Diogenes wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:53 am Those who refuse to get vaccinated are either claiming they know more than the medical researchers and their own physicians or they are willfully risking their health and ours for some political or other non scientific reason.
Diseases are a fact of life and people don't have an obligation to protect you from them. It's nice if they want to do so, but they don't have to. If the vaccine truly offers protective effects, you can take it and enjoy them. If you're going to die from a common disease, you can get in a sanitary plastic bubble.
With all due respect, this is nonsense. You start by misstating the issue as "people don't have an obligation to protect you from [diseases].

The issue is whether you have an obligation to take reasonable and easy precautions to keep YOURSELF from infecting others, particularly when you know, or should know you are contagious. The way you have misstated the issue, you would have no duty to wash your hands after a bowel movement, but instead march directly into the kitchen and prepare and serve raw food.

Washing your hands is like getting a vaccination. Both are free, easy, and reduce the risk you will harm others. Wearing a mask is a slight inconvenience and one I do not like, but it is much less annoying than having a breathing tube jammed down your throat. Vaccination and quarantine have both long been considered both a personal responsibility and an acceptable government mandate in healthy societies.

The additional problem with the current pandemic is that antivaxxers have encouraged the virus to spread and mutate. The latest report suggests a new variant that combines omicron and delta. When a variant spreads that is as contagious as omicron and as deadly as delta, we will have the antivaxxers and others ignorant of science and disrespectful of others to blame.
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