FAITH OF THE FOUNDERS

[Daystar]

One of the most debated issues about the birth of our nation is what it was founded upon. I suggest that it was indeed founded by godly men who would not have objected to such things as the public posting of the Ten Commandments, or the Pledge of Allegiance or prayer in a classroom. What say ye?

[Daystar]

[Day] Quite true, but in the founding era, religion had particular reference to sect or denomination. Madison wanted this specifically mentioned in the establishment clause. But the final wording exlcuded it. Nevertheless, it is clear from their writings that the founders had sect or denomination in mind when they framed the amendment as noted in my first message.

Daystar, please quote simply the parts to which you respond and not the entire text of the previous post. It makes the thread more redundant than necessary.

[Day] I don't know how you do that. I find it very confusing. Sorry bout that.

[otseng]

[Day] I don't know how you do that. I find it very confusing. Sorry bout that.

Please check your Private Messages (PM). I have sent you a PM explaining how to do it. Let's discuss privately on how to use the features of the forum properly.

[Daystar]

[Day] I don't know how you do that. I find it very confusing. Sorry bout that.

Please check your Private Messages (PM). I have sent you a PM explaining how to do it. Let's discuss privately on how to use the features of the forum properly.

[Day] OK, let's try again.

When responding, do you always hit the "quote" to bring you to the page where you enter your messages? This would be the page that says "message body."

When you get here, do you hit quote again which is to the right of "message body."

How do you preserve the quote from your correspondent so that it appears in a white box like I see so many times?

Some of the exchanges get long and complicated because they bring other comments into the discussion. How to arrange that in a response seems so complicated. Sorry I'm such a dudhead on this.

[otseng]

Some of the exchanges get long and complicated because they bring other comments into the discussion. How to arrange that in a response seems so complicated. Sorry I'm such a dudhead on this.

I've updated the tutorial to explain how to do nested quotes. Please review this post:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... .php?t=582

After reading it, go to the below link and compose test messages to your heart's content:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... m.php?f=11

If you have any questions, send me a (PM) message by clicking here:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/p ... &sub=inbox
Click new post, enter "otseng" for the username. Enter "Questions" for subject. Then enter your questions in the message body. Then hit "Submit".

Please follow these directions and we can discuss more via PM.

[Gaunt]

Two can play at the quotes from the founders game.

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82 (capitalization of the word god is retained per original; see Positive Atheism's Historical Section)

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808).

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.
-- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief


I think that should about cover it.

[Daystar]

Two can play at the quotes from the founders game.

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (the original language is by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul)

[Day] Absolutely correct! The "government" was not founded, per se, on Christianity, but the founders believed that the men and women who formed our Republic were God-fearing Christians who believed the hand of Providence guided it. The Constitution did not "found" America. But there are other problems with the Treaty of Tripoli. I strongly recommend the following well documented piece about this Treaty.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/s ... sourceID=5

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001)

[Day] Early in his life, this was true, but the aging statesman gained much wisdom over the years and recognized the hand of God in the forming of our Republic as he noted at the Convention.

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82 (capitalization of the word god is retained per original; see Positive Atheism's Historical Section)

[Day] Jefferson may not have been a Christian, but he firmly believed the moral teachings of Jesus and that the government had no authority over the religious affairs of the states. He allowed Sunday church services in the Capitol Rotunda and did not oppose federal funding for some religious projects. I wonder what the ACLU would say if Bush opened up the Rotunda for the same and asked for funds to build a church for some Indians, as Jefferson did. Jefferson was no enemy of Christianity and his famous "wall of separation" has been tortured by those who don't want any religion in public institutions.

"No power over the freedom of religion....[is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution." - Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolution, 1798

"In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government." – Thomas Jefferson, Second Inaugural Address, 1805

"Certainly no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States as far as it can be in any human authority." – Thomas Jefferson, letter to Samuel Miller, 1808

"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society."
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808).

[Day] there's no problem with this. Rightly, Jefferson was against any denomination being funded to force itself on others. But he was NOT opposed to the influence of Christianity in the government and its institutions. Jefferson's "wall" was very different than the one constructed by Everson v Board of Education (1947). Jefferson's wall was set up AGAINST Federal intrusion into the religious affairs of the states, while he did not oppose the influence of the church in the affairs of the government:

"The liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will is a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our own experience to be its best support" (Thomas Jefferson)

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever..." (Thomas Jefferson)

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

[Day] Right, "Established by Law" would be a no-no. This would breach the first amendment. Again, this does not mean that Jefferson opposed the influence of the Church (Christianity) in government. IOW, he would not oppose the Ten Commandments being posted in public, or prayer and Bible reading in the schools.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.
-- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

[Day] What does this say about removing the influence of Biblical Christianity from public institutions?

I think that should about cover it.

[Day] My friend, you have not come up with one statement showing where the founders opposed the influence of Biblical Christianity in public institutions (Prayer, Bible reading, Ten Commandments, creches, creationisn, etc). Don't forget, there were many other founders than Jefferson and Madison who were less "religious" than they and who were far more outspoken about their faith and why the influence of the Bible was crucial to the prosperity and happiness of our Republic. I will close with this quote from Geroge Washington in his Farewell Address:

"Of all the dispostions and habits leading to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of partroit who would labor to subvert these pillars of human happiness."

[Gaunt]

Hmm, perhaps two can't play at that game

However, a few comments struck me as odd.

Right, "Established by Law" would be a no-no. This would breach the first amendment. Again, this does not mean that Jefferson opposed the influence of the Church (Christianity) in government. IOW, he would not oppose the Ten Commandments being posted in public, or prayer and Bible reading in the schools.

Note also where he says "and ingrafted into the machine of government." It seems clear that Jefferson did not want the church involved in government.

As far as I know, private prayer and bible reading are not banned in school. It is simply not supported, and not allowed during times where students should be learning. The Ten Commandments are not posted for the same reason the Noble Eightfold Path is not posted: because it would signify a state endorsement of religion.

Creches are not allowed because it is a use of public property by churches. The interesting thing about my last quote was not necessarily what was said, but what it was said about. Madison was objecting to the use of government land by churches.

Creationism is opposed only for the science room. Most people wouldn't object at all if it were being pushed for in a comparative religions class.

"The liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will is a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our own experience to be its best support" (Thomas Jefferson)

I do not see how this supports your position. He is supporting liberty itself, rather than any religion in particular. Liberty has been the government's best support.

Of all the dispostions and habits leading to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of partroit who would labor to subvert these pillars of human happiness.

Agreed. So we should stop trying to subvert Islamic values or Buddhist moral consciences through the public endorsement of Christianity, yes?

[Daystar]

Hmm, perhaps two can't play at that game

However, a few comments struck me as odd.

Right, "Established by Law" would be a no-no. This would breach the first amendment. Again, this does not mean that Jefferson opposed the influence of the Church (Christianity) in government. IOW, he would not oppose the Ten Commandments being posted in public, or prayer and Bible reading in the schools.

Note also where he says "and ingrafted into the machine of government." It seems clear that Jefferson did not want the church involved in government.

[Day] He was not referring to the "influence" of Biblical Christianity, but any law establishing clerical authority, such as there was in the mother country (what a disaster that was).

As far as I know, private prayer and bible reading are not banned in school.

[Day] This is where it gets tricky. It is true that students can have after school Bible studies. But what if a student should want to offer a prayer or bible verse before the start of class. Would that not rev up the ACLU engines?

It is simply not supported, and not allowed during times where students should be learning. The Ten Commandments are not posted for the same reason the Noble Eightfold Path is not posted: because it would signify a state endorsement of religion.

[Day] I don't believe the founders would have objected to Commandments being posted. Their writings seem to reveal a predisposition towards encouraging the INFLUENCE of religion in government, not banning it as is the trend today. I don't think the ACLU would have fared well in the founding era. The establishment clause says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." How does the posting of the Ten Commandments constitute an establishment of a religion? What church, denomination, or religion is being established? The Ten Commandments are none of the above. They are a moral and spiritual influence.

But, for argument's sake, let's say the Commandments ARE an establishment of religion if posted on the wall of a public school. Then, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." What law can Congress make to remove them if they can't make laws respecting establishments of religion?

Creches are not allowed because it is a use of public property by churches.

[Day] God forbid that positive moral and spiritual inflluences should be placed where people can see them, be they put in place by a city hall or local church. But the same principle is applied to creches as the commandments. They are viewed as violations against the wall separating church and state; church in principle, not institution. But a studious research of what Jefferson ment by "wall of separation" will reveal that the wall that exists today does not conform to the building code of Jefferson's wall.

The interesting thing about my last quote was not necessarily what was said, but what it was said about. Madison was objecting to the use of government land by churches.

[Day] But where did he say that he opposed the influence of Biblical Christianity in government or its institutions? Madison saw some pretty bad things being done in the "name of religion." And no doubt he was right. Such things have no place anywhere. But I am not aware of Madison ever saying that he objected, for example, to the moral and spiritual teachings of Jesus as a gudiing influence in governmental institutions.

Creationism is opposed only for the science room. Most people wouldn't object at all if it were being pushed for in a comparative religions class.

[Day] I'm just curious, but are you aware of what creation science curriculums teach? It's probably not what you think.

"The liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will is a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our own experience to be its best support" (Thomas Jefferson)

I do not see how this supports your position. He is supporting liberty itself, rather than any religion in particular. Liberty has been the government's best support.

[Day] He is supporting the liberty to worship and finds such liberty to be compatible with good government.

Of all the dispostions and habits leading to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of partroit who would labor to subvert these pillars of human happiness.

Agreed. So we should stop trying to subvert Islamic values or Buddhist moral consciences through the public endorsement of Christianity, yes?

[Day] Nice try:-) No one is trying to subvert Islam or Buddhism. But Washington had Christianity in mind in this statement. But he also agreed that people should be free to worship according to the dictates of their own will. The founders definitely opposed the doctrines of Mohammedism and Romanism, yet believed they should have their seat in the marketplace of religions.

[Jose]

No one is trying to subvert Islam or Buddhism. But Washington had Christianity in mind in this statement. But he also agreed that people should be free to worship according to the dictates of their own will. The founders definitely opposed the doctrines of Mohammedism and Romanism, yet believed they should have their seat in the marketplace of religions.

No, it won't subvert Islam or Buddhism if we post, in all schools and public places, that they are not allowed to hold any god before the Christian god. Perhaps we should post just some of the 10 commandments--say, maybe just 7 or 8. Skip the ones that demand obeisance to the one Christian god, and demand that the Sabbath be kept holy, and that we make no images of god. Just some good rules of behavior. I bet the True Christians wouldn't be very happy about this.

But, you know, it's not sensible to dictate our current laws on the basis of what we thought the founding fathers believed. They wrote a constitution that they expected would guide the nation into the future, when things might be different than they were then. Lo and behold, things are different now! We have billed ourselves as a melting pot, eagerly encouraging people from other countries to emigrate to the US (though some of us seem to be changing our minds, and saying "now that we're here, let's not let anyone else come.") We now have more religions than we did then, and larger numbers of people in every religion than we did then. We have learned a great deal more through science, providing many people with a logical belief system that serves them as well as, or better than, a religion. It seems, therefore, rather inappropriate to "go back to the 1700's" and rewrite our laws to fit the founding fathers' beliefs. It's fun to think about what they believed, and how this led them to phrase the constitution the way they did--but let's give them credit for thinking ahead. Perhaps they did recognize the dangers of a single denomination dictating the rules, and that is what spurred them to write that "no religion" should be favored by the State, but they didn't write "no single denomination of Christianity, so that all other flavors of Christianity can be followed by the citizens, but let's certainly avoid other religions, even if we don't yet know about them." They were clever, and recognized that the same problems could arise from any religion, or any denomination thereof.

[Arch]

As anyone brought up the point that our founding father were Mason. The Masonic creed holds to no specific religion or GOD. THe only criteria being that one believe in a higher being. IE a being greater than himself.

A lot of the founding fathers were not christians at all. Secondly I doubt Muslims or Buddhist or Egyptians for that matter would be upset with the ten commandments, because such commandments are not Isolated to just Christianity in the first place. The egyptian's had a wriiting called the 42 negative confessions which was just like the ten commandments. and was written well before "moses" supposedly came along.

I can't understand why Chrisitians think everything is from their religion, when in fact mostly all of christianity is borrowed from other religions and pagan societies.

Do I think they would have objected to prayer is schools, some of them I am sure would have. Some of them most likely wouldn't have. Prayer isn't only done by Chrisitains either.

Would it be ok to pray to Allah in public school in mostly arab neighborhoods. Yaweh in Jewish neighborhoods. What if you were in a mostly arab neighborhood and their schools prayed to Allah.

Would you want your child praying with them? to Allah?