The Christian, Pro-Life, Pro-Kerry, Anti-Bush Argument

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The Christian, Pro-Life, Pro-Kerry, Anti-Bush Argument

Post #1

Post by Spongemom »

The Christian, Pro-Life, Pro-Kerry, Anti-Bush Argument

I recognize the conflict experienced when considering casting your vote for John Kerry when what you hold dear is your intrinsic faith and pro-life beliefs. George Bush has openly discussed his religious beliefs in forums designed to sway your opinion. Christian words ring hollow though without Christian actions to back them up.
Point One: Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace, not the Prince of War. George Bush is proud of saying that he is a “War President”. When he criticizes John Kerry, it is for the very possibility of trying to find more peaceful resolutions to the Iraq War. Bush is not only against trying to bring in our international allies but portrays Kerry as weak for even considering a peaceful solution.
Point Three: Pro-life, should mean all life, including those who have committed crimes. You cannot claim biblical justification for defending the life of the unborn while you take pleasure in the execution of the accused. As Governor of Texas, Bush presided over the executions of 152 people. In addition, he mocked one of the women he put to death. Republican journalist Tucker Carlson described it as follows:

“Bush mimicking the woman's final plea for her life. "'Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, 'don't kill me.'"
These only scratch the surface. Bush has not walked a Christian life. He has not led as a Christian. It is a vast difference between saying Jesus Christ is your favorite philosopher and actually following his teachings. Bush wraps himself up in the flag to instill false patriotism. He wraps himself up in the bible without following its commands, and thus becomes a false prophet. George Bush has said that God told him to “strike at Saddam”. Do you believe that God instructed him to “shock and awe” the Iraqis? Do you believe that God told him to kill over 20,000 Iraqi civilians? There is nothing biblical or Christian about this war. There is nothing pro-life about 20,000 deaths. You must not vote this election based on empty words. You must look at deeds and what they stand for. If you are basing your decision on being pro-life for religious beliefs, then it is your duty to look at all of George W. Bush in religious terms and hold him to the standard of the Word of God, which he claims to read every day.
I am not going to get into my personal opinion of George Bush. That would take far too long. I will, however, say that for those who do believe in a God, following Bush at the same time is hypocritical. He is a religious fanatic almost to the point of insanity. Claiming Jesus as his "favorite philosopher", and then condemning liberals as being "unpatriotic" when Jesus himself was a liberal. Amazing how that works, ain't it? ;)
A friend of mine, in response to this, wrote:Kerry's religious views don't matter one way or the other to the Christian Right. It's kind of hard to get between a man who thinks he talks to God -- and that God talks back -- and the people who believe him rather than wondering if it's a sign of a neurological disorder, i.e. temporal lobe seizures caused by alcohol and drug abuse which are causing hallucinations.
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Post #2

Post by Piper Plexed »

Spongemom,
"Politics and Religion" is part of our Debate sub forum

As per the Rules
The forum is in two main categories - the Debate category and the Discussion category. All debates belong in the debate category. Topics without anything clear to be debate will be removed from the debate sub forums. All discussions belong in the discussion category. Any debates in the discussion sub forums will either be moved or deleted.
3. When you start a new topic in a debate sub forum, it must state a clearly defined question(s) for debate.

Please take a moment to define a question for Debate or we would be happy to move this thread to the appropriate sub forum.
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Post #3

Post by Spongemom »

Is George Bush taking Christianity and molding it to fit his purposes, or is this what Christianity is really about? Does God condone this war, and why?

If that still doesn't qualify as a debate topic, go ahead and move it. Won't bother me. ;) :D
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Post #4

Post by Piper Plexed »

Looks good to me, and Thank You for your prompt response :).
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Post #5

Post by perfessor »

Spongemom wrote:Is George Bush taking Christianity and molding it to fit his purposes, or is this what Christianity is really about?
My hope is that in a few days, this will be a moot question.
Does God condone this war, and why?
Humans condone war, and invent the justifications. What better justification than "God"?
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

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Post #6

Post by Spongemom »

Bush doesn't just use God as a justification for this war. He insists that God himself is speaking directly to him, and telling him who to take out (Saddam), what countries to invade (Iraq) and basically everything else he has done in the past four years. Bush claims to have "found God" and says that he "asks for guidance" before every move he makes. Look where that got us. According to Bush, God wanted him to invade an innocent country based on lies to the public and kill 100,000 people? I don't buy it. I don't believe in a "God", but if I did, I would not believe in one so cruel and heartless. Many speculations have come about regarding Bush's mental stability, and after what I've read, I'm beginning to think he may be hallucinating every bit of it, and actually think a God is talking to him. In which case, he's much better suited for a mental institution rather than running a country.
If we are going to teach creation science as an alternative to evolution,
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Post #7

Post by Piper Plexed »

This seems to be opinion and supposition. It may very well be true that Bush is really psychotic and actively hears voices :yikes: though I don't recall actually hearing him admit to it. As far as I can remember, Bush has admitted to praying a great deal before making the decision to engage Iraq, To me, that is akin to thinking through the issue prior to action. Please show me where he says that God told him to go into Iraq :confused2:

Just to clarify...
Hallucinations
Auditory hallucinations, particularly the experience of hearing voices, is a common and often prominent feature of psychosis. Hallucinated voices may talk about, or to the person, and may involve several speakers with distinct personas. Auditory hallucinations tend to be particularly distressing when they are derogatory, commanding or preoccupying.
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Post #8

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http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le3945.htm

During the tense talks at the summit, Bush sought to underscore the kind of authority he could bring to efforts at achieving peace in the Middle East. While thundering that there could be "no deals with terror groups," Bush sought to assure the rattled Palestinians that he also had the ability to wring concessions from Sharon. And what was the source of this wonder-working power? It was not, as you might think, the ungodly size of the U.S. military or the gargantuan amount of money and arms the United States pours into Israel year after year.

No, Bush said he derived his moral heft from the Almighty Himself. What's more, the Lord had proven his devotion to the Crawford Crusader by crowning his military efforts with success. In fact, he told Abbas, God was holding the door open for Middle East peace right now -- but they would have to move fast, because soon the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe would have to give His attention to something far more important: the election of His little sunbeam, Georgie, in 2004.

Here are Bush's exact words, quoted by Haaretz: "God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

You can't put it plainer than that. The whole chaotic rigmarole of Security Council votes and UN inspections and congressional approval and Colin Powell's whizbang Powerpoint displays of "proof" and Bush's own tearful prayers for "peace" -- it was all a sham, a meaningless exercise.

No votes, no inspections, no proof or lack of proof -- in fact, no earthly reason whatsoever -- could have stopped Bush's aggressive war on Iraq. It was God's unalterable will: the Lord of Hosts gave a direct order for George W. Bush to "strike at Saddam."

And strike he did, with an awesome fury that rained death and destruction on the mustachioed whore of Babylon, with a firestorm of Godly wrath that consumed the enemy armies like so much chaff put to the flame -- and with an arsenal of cruise missiles, cluster bombs, dive bombers and assault helicopters that killed up to 10,000 innocent civilians: blasted to pieces in their beds, shot down in their fields and streets, crushed beneath the walls of their own houses, boiled alive in factories, ditches and cars, gutted, mutilated, beheaded, murdered, women, children, elders, some praying, some wailing, some cursing, some mute with fear as metal death ripped their lives away and left rotting hulks behind. This was the work of the Lord and His faithful servant, whom He hath raised high up to have dominion over men.

And this is the mindset -- or rather, the primitive fever-dream -- that is now directing the actions of the greatest military power in the history of the world. There can be no doubt that Bush believes literally in the divine character of his mission. He honestly and sincerely believes that whatever "decision" forms in his brain -- out of the flux and flow of his own emotional impulses and biochemical reactions, the flattery and cajolements of his sinister advisers, the random scraps of fact, myth and fabrication that dribble into his proudly undeveloped and incurious consciousness -- has been planted there, whole and perfected, by God Almighty.

And that's why Bush acts with such serenity and ruthlessness. Nothing he does can be challenged on moral grounds, however unethical or evil it might appear, because all of his actions are directed by God. He can twist the truth, oppress the poor, exalt the rich, despoil the Earth, ignore the law -- and murder children -- without the slightest compunction, the briefest moment of doubt or self-reflection, because he believes, he truly believes, that God squats in his brainpan and tells him what to do.
http://www.amenusa.org/iraq89.htm

According to Abbas, immediately thereafter Bush said: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news ... 117591.php

Here are Bush's exact words, quoted by Haaretz: "God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
He clearly states that it was "God's" will, not his own, that was the driving force behind the widespread destruction and slaughter of thousands of innocent people in Iraq.
If we are going to teach creation science as an alternative to evolution,
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Post #9

Post by Piper Plexed »

Spongemom wrote:
http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news ... 117591.php

Here are Bush's exact words, quoted by Haaretz: "God told me to strike at al-Qaida and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
He clearly states that it was "God's" will, not his own, that was the driving force behind the widespread destruction and slaughter of thousands of innocent people in Iraq.
I beg to differ, what you have quoted is some person named Haaretz clearly stating that this is what Bush said. Not only do I not know who Haaretz is but I am unfamiliar with the news source linked. For me this doesn't qualify as proof of Psychosis :whistle:
Well if this was said by Bush, I suspect that the transcript of the speech that it was proclaimed in is available somewhere on the web. Unfortunately Mr. Haaretz didn't bother to date and place his quote, doesn't lend much credence to what he asserts, does it.
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Post #10

Post by Spongemom »

Haaretz is not a person. It is a newspaper. Apparently, you did not read those links. And it wasn't a speech, it was an interview. As for a transcript, this article pretty much sums it all up.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShAr ... &listSrc=Y


`Road map is a life saver for us,' PM Abbas tells Hamas

By Arnon Regular

Selected minutes acquired by Haaretz from one of last week's cease-fire negotiations between Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas and faction leaders from the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular and Democratic Fronts, reveal some of the factors at play behind the scenes in the effort to achieve a hudna.

Abbas opened the session after hearing scathing criticism from faction leaders for his Aqaba speech in which he defined their activities as "terrorism." He began with a broad review of his two meetings with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the Aqaba summit.

"After seven days we did not reach agreement in Cairo on either the hudna or the united leadership. These points were later discussed in contacts in Gaza and in my view, the two points are the ones that should be on the table."

Abbas said: "The descriptions of what happened at Sharm el Sheikh and in Aqaba are vague in parts and in some parts are inventions, so this is an opportunity to talk about what happened since the PA accepted the road map on December 20," he said. "Despite our reservations we decided not to make them an obstacle, believing that the road map was a life saver for a tiger whose head was caught in the neck of the bottle."

Abbas said "we were told that [President George ] Bush is committed to the establishment of a viable Palestinian state beside the state of Israel, so based on our saying that we are ready to try that experiment, that is what was determined."

He explained to the faction leaders that with regard to the first phase of the road map, there was an agreement with the Americans that "the Palestinians would speak publicly about their commitments according to the map and then the Israelis would do the same thing." From there, he moved on to describe what happened at the summits. He said that Bush told the Arab leaders that he is fully committed to a solution based on his vision speech from June 24, 2002 and is ready to move forward "if there is help on your part."

"The Arabs supported him and I said we are ready to fulfill our commitments as they appear in the map," said Abbas. He said the discussion of the start of the implementation of the map dealt with Gaza, where he said that Palestinian Authority institutions "are 75 percent destroyed, while in the West Bank they are 100 percent destroyed."

He emphasized that at that stage he made clear to the participants at the Sharm summit that "we need time and capabilities to stand on our feet. And I explained that I had already spoken with Ariel Sharon about reaching a hudna between all the Palestinian factions." According to Abbas, "Bush exploded with anger and said `there can be no deals with terror groups.' We told him that they are part of our people and we cannot deal with them in any other way. We cannot begin with repression, under no circumstances, and I made clear to Bush that Sharon already agreed with that."

He said that he presented Bush with the deliberations about the hudna that he had with Sharon in Jerusalem after he was appointed prime minister. He explained to Bush that the dialogue between the Palestinian factions that began in Cairo and continued in Gaza were on the verge of completion. He said that Bush said "a case-fire is not the whole story" - Bush meant that a hudna is only the start of the process of disarming the groups.

Abbas outlined the political contacts during the Aqaba summit and said he added the prisoner issue at the three-way session with Bush and Sharon. "I told them the prisons are the election district for a campaign of calm in the Palestinian territories." He said Bush then turned to Sharon "with the following words, `look what you can profit from this, that holding onto the prisoners only creates tension.'"

Abbas said: "We were asked what we need if Israel withdraws and we said `that there not be raids, chases, assassinations or house demolitions, because that kind of activity will destroy everything.'"

Abbas tried to placate the faction leaders by telling them that Palestinian Security Minister Mohammed Dahlan had raised the exact same issues with John Wolf, the American monitor of the road map. He tried to explain that in the wake of the failed attempt on Abdel Aziz Rantisi's life, the PA was now insisting on an end to the assassinations.

He went on to explain his speech in Aqaba. "We did not speak of our rights but only of our commitments. Bush was impressed by that and mentioned the prisoners and settlements in his speech." On the matter of the right of return, Abbas said "that right appears in all the previous initiatives, and is not under discussion now. Bush asked, if that's the case, why mention the settlements now, and I told him the settlements are happening now. The Israelis use the excuse of natural growth and I told them that according to U.S. statistics, 33 percent of settlements are empty. We said the growth should happen westward, and not on our territory."

Abbas said that at Aqaba, Bush promised to speak with Sharon about the siege on Arafat. He said nobody can speak to or pressure Sharon except the Americans.

According to Abbas, immediately thereafter Bush said: "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
There is no video of this, because no camera was present. There's nothing I can do there. But I've been searching on this topic all morning, and have yet to find anything that disputes the fact that this is a direct quote from Bush himself. If he didn't say that, at least the whitehouse website would have something on it, don't you think?

The quote itself is not the issue though. The issue is with the fact that George Bush believes that God is speaking directly to him, and that if you believe anything other than what he tells you, you are wrong. I am convinced that Bush is determined to have one religion across the globe, and that just won't work.

"God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear."
-- Reverend Dubya is confusing and spooky all at the same time, Los Angeles, California, Mar. 3, 2004

"And we base it, our history, and our decision making, our future, on solid values. The first value is, we're all God's children."
-- Not even attempting to rhetorically separate his religion and politics anymore, Washington, D.C., Jul. 16, 2003

"It's so inspirational to see your courage, as well as to see the great works of our Lord in your heart."
-- Speaking on behalf of all Americans in a manner that is only consistent with the religious beliefs of some, Nashville, Tennessee, Feb. 10, 2003

"And we want Russia to be a country based upon the values which we share, because we believe those values are the best values for the human condition of everybody. I like to tell people, freedom is not an American gift. Freedom is a gift from the Almighty God. And I firmly believe that."
-- Dubya ultimately inferring that American-ness is only next to godliness, and Russia needs to learn that, interview with LNK TV, Lithuania, Nov. 21, 2002

"It's also important for people to know we never seek to impose our culture or our form of government. We just want to live under those universal values, God-given values."
-- Great, that's not an imposition at all, Reverend Dubya! Washington, DA.C., Oct. 11, 2002

"We love the fact that people can worship an almighty God any way they see fit here in America."
-- Dubya again demonstrates his inability to separate his own beliefs (in an "almighty God") from the meaning of "freedom of religion", Phoenix, Arizona, Sep. 28, 2002

"See, we value each human life as important. We don't try to distinguish -- everybody has got worth in the eyes of the Almighty, as far as we're concerned in this nation."
-- Speaking again on behalf of the entire nation with his religiously tinted rhetoric, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Sep. 2, 2002

"And I just -- I cannot speak strongly enough about how we must collectively get after those who kill in the name of -- in the name of some kind of false religion."
-- Would that be Islam, Dubya? press appearance with King Abdullah of Jordan, Aug. 1, 2002

"America is a nation that is -- a nation that values our relationship with an Almighty. Declaration of God in the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't violate rights. As a matter of fact, it's a confirmation of the fact that we received our rights from God, as proclaimed in our Declaration of Independence. I -- I believe that it points up the fact that we need common-sense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. And those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench."
-- Debye blasting an 8-foot-wide hole through the separation of church and state, and totally ignoring the actual context in which the "under God" stanza was added to the Pledge of Allegiance. I also have to assume that in land of DubyaSpeak, "common-sense" means "God-fearing Christian". So much for atheists, agnostics and Buddhists, eh Dubya? Kananaskis, Canada, June 27, 2002

"Iamb grateful to all of you, who remind us that a great people must spend time on bended knee, in humility, searching for wisdom in the presence of the Almighty."
-- So much for that pesky separation of church and state, Washington, D.C., May 2, 2002

A president should not impose his beliefs on the entire country as if everyone follows the same doctrine.

For me this doesn't qualify as proof of Psychosis
Take it as proof, or don't, doesn't make a difference to me, but here is an evaluation of Bush and his mannerisms done by Dr. Justin Frank, director of psychiatry at George Washington University.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/p ... 4704.shtml
If we are going to teach creation science as an alternative to evolution,
then we should also teach the stork theory as an alternative to biological reproduction.

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