Realization leads to God

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Swami
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Realization leads to God

Post #1

Post by Swami »

I would like to introduce the concept of realization. Realization is the way to true knowledge. To realize means that you become aware of something that was always there. This is what I practice.

In the West, the theory for gaining knowledge is that it must be learned. On a very basic level I agree. However, you will not see the big picture. Besides that, you are wasting a lot of time and energy.

What many scientists do not understand is that we exist in consciousness. All knowledge is contained in it since we can not experience anything outside of it. You then ask, if we all possess consciousness, then why don't we know everything? Why do we learn as if things exist outside of our awareness? The problem is the mind and senses. They are limited. They create the illusion of something "out there". If you follow the full implications of what I am saying, then there is nothing out there to learn. That means it's already in you waiting to be "realized". Intuition is a form of realization and scientists already accept this! It is knowledge that comes to you without learning.

Where does God come in? It comes from you realizing that you are omniscient, and everything exist in you.

Is intuition a product of realization or learning?

Please offer me a scientific reason for relying on learning over intuition.

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #41

Post by William »

Dimmesdale wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:58 pm
William wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:55 pm [Replying to Dimmesdale in post #37]
And I find that realization to be much inferior in quality compared to a God who we can experience with qualities. Unlike you, I believe that in the beginning there was more than just "I am." There were spiritual qualities and forms before "the universes" arose. But I know you don't accept that.
Why do you think I don't accept that?
OR perhaps you do.
Yes - I think I even mentioned these as prior creations to this universe...but anyway I am fully talking about this every day I am on the forum...
Actually, I'm not fully certain. But you come across as an impersonalist who believes that "I am" existed and then gave rise to illusory forms.
This is what I think yes. I am not designating any of various theories or approaches which reduce or reject the importance of the individual (as a being, focus, subject, author, etc.); nor designating a theory or belief that The Creator does not have the nature of or manifest as a personality or being.

I am saying that the being was always in existence and that all creation is held within Its mind. The creation amounts to manifested personality. I am saying that before creations of any sort manifested, Consciousness existed as self aware.
The alternative would be that everything which has is and will exist, has always existed as a simultaneous One Thing.
I have come across many thinkers like you. There are many, many such Vedantins who stop at that "I am" - without form. You yourself said this was a "Naked Being." I assume therefore that you think all form is caused by matter and duality. Prove me wrong.
I don't think that is the case. I think that what we call 'matter' and "reality" and whatever we could experience as reality, is within the mind of The Creator. Only Creators Consciousness is real. [Since I also think all consciousness is an aspect of Creator Consciousness, all consciousness is likewise real.

But what is being experienced as real, is not really real. Only that which is experiencing is that which real.

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #42

Post by Dimmesdale »

William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:56 am

But what is being experienced as real, is not really real. Only that which is experiencing is that which real.
I believe this world of space and time is real, but temporary. It exists, but the spiritual world is "more real" because it is eternal. I believe we can experience that spiritual world which is real. There are spiritual objects which are real and have form, qualities, etc. in my opinion.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #43

Post by William »

Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:51 am
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:56 am

But what is being experienced as real, is not really real. Only that which is experiencing is that which real.
I believe this world of space and time is real, but temporary. It exists, but the spiritual world is "more real" because it is eternal. I believe we can experience that spiritual world which is real. There are spiritual objects which are real and have form, qualities, etc. in my opinion.
When one understands that we essentially exist as aspects of Creator Consciousness, we understand that things which can be experienced as real are not actually real, we can cease self identifying as the created and perhaps even enjoy the creation that much more.

But anyway, what we understand or believe to be shapes how we move through experiences...go well...

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #44

Post by Dimmesdale »

William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:13 pm
When one understands that we essentially exist as aspects of Creator Consciousness,
If we exist as aspect(s) (plural) of Creator Consciousness, that means we are not the Creator (at least not the Whole Creator). So we are individuals. There is not just one monolithic "I Am."
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:13 pmwe understand that things which can be experienced as real are not actually real, we can cease self identifying as the created and perhaps even enjoy the creation that much more.
I agree we are part of uncreated consciousness. That is our true self. But that does not mean there is only ONE "I am" and it alone is real.... There is real difference even in the spiritual world.
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:13 pmBut anyway, what we understand or believe to be shapes how we move through experiences...go well...
That's true. The way we react to experiences in life depends on our level of knowledge and understanding. If we have sufficient knowledge, that can be like a boat that can take us across the stormy seas of life.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #45

Post by William »

Dimmesdale wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:39 pm
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:13 pm
When one understands that we essentially exist as aspects of Creator Consciousness,
If we exist as aspect(s) (plural) of Creator Consciousness, that means we are not the Creator (at least not the Whole Creator). So we are individuals. There is not just one monolithic "I Am."
From The Creator 's perspective we are all an outward expression of The Creator [ I Am expression] so yes, being that The Creator is the real perspective, there is only just the One. Any splits are the individuals perceptions creating illusion.. [unreal] which leads to misinformation regarding the reality experience being experienced.

If the individual believes in the illusion, that is okay, but the better perception to have is one of none separation and the common denominator which makes this possible in First Source [Creator] Consciousness. Recognition/realisation of this is acknowledged by The Creator but requires also being understood by the individual...And is possible to get the gist of at least and even experience as a reality.
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:13 pmwe understand that things which can be experienced as real are not actually real, we can cease self identifying as the created and perhaps even enjoy the creation that much more.
I agree we are part of uncreated consciousness. That is our true self. But that does not mean there is only ONE "I am" and it alone is real.... There is real difference even in the spiritual world.
The differences [even in the immaterial universe] are because of the perceptions and acommpanying expression of said belief systems, and just as in this universe, vary from extremely pleasing to horrifically nasty...all the result of not understanding that all percieved difference, is illusion [untrue].
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:13 pmBut anyway, what we understand or believe to be shapes how we move through experiences...go well...
That's true. The way we react to experiences in life depends on our level of knowledge and understanding. If we have sufficient knowledge, that can be like a boat that can take us across the stormy seas of life.
And how better to experience that than to understand we are all First Source having our experiences...The notion calms the stormy seas and allows for a much smoother ride...

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #46

Post by Dimmesdale »

William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pm
From The Creator 's perspective we are all an outward expression of The Creator [ I Am expression] so yes, being that The Creator is the real perspective, there is only just the One. Any splits are the individuals perceptions creating illusion.. [unreal] which leads to misinformation regarding the reality experience being experienced.
Reality is not about perspective. Reality is reality regardless how we see it. And I say that reality contains both unity as well as multiplicity. Simultaneously.
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pmIf the individual believes in the illusion, that is okay, but the better perception to have is one of none separation and the common denominator which makes this possible in First Source [Creator] Consciousness. Recognition/realisation of this is acknowledged by The Creator but requires also being understood by the individual...And is possible to get the gist of at least and even experience as a reality.
I actually agree there is no separation, because all things are intimately connected. But there is diversity which is equally real. Otherwise there could be no intimacy between the energies of God (us) and God. Love has no meaning then. Or only self-love.
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pmThe differences [even in the immaterial universe] are because of the perceptions and acommpanying expression of said belief systems, and just as in this universe, vary from extremely pleasing to horrifically nasty...all the result of not understanding that all percieved difference, is illusion [untrue].
Completely disagree, because reality is not built on perception, again. It exists regardless what we think. Spiritual variety is not illusion. But it differs from the dualistic pain/pleasure principle of the material world. There everything is absolute, and therefore perfect in every way, not partaking of the dualism we find here.
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pmAnd how better to experience that than to understand we are all First Source having our experiences...The notion calms the stormy seas and allows for a much smoother ride...
It is good that you have that sense of no separation. That is a very good thing. All is one indeed. But not to the exclusion of spiritual variety. A gold mine is one gold mine, but there are many individual pieces of gold contained within the one gold mine.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #47

Post by William »

William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pm
From The Creator 's perspective we are all an outward expression of The Creator [ I Am expression] so yes, being that The Creator is the real perspective, there is only just the One. Any splits are the individuals perceptions creating illusion.. [unreal] which leads to misinformation regarding the reality experience being experienced.
Reality is not about perspective. Reality is reality regardless how we see it. And I say that reality contains both unity as well as multiplicity. Simultaneously.
How I see reality is not in what can be seen and thus experienced and That is First Source Conciouness undivided. The "nakedness" I referred to a few posts back had to do with FFC not able to be visually imaged as any thing [object] but only experienced as the one and only actual reality which exists.


William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pmIf the individual believes in the illusion, that is okay, but the better perception to have is one of none separation and the common denominator which makes this possible in First Source [Creator] Consciousness. Recognition/realisation of this is acknowledged by The Creator but requires also being understood by the individual...And is possible to get the gist of at least and even experience as a reality.
I actually agree there is no separation, because all things are intimately connected. But there is diversity which is equally real. Otherwise there could be no intimacy between the energies of God (us) and God. Love has no meaning then. Or only self-love.
Whereas I differ slightly [but significantly] in that the intimacy is part of the illusion. It is self love, even when extended to any and all of the parts. Much like the big toe is not and single stand alone object but can be made to appear so [illusion.]
If the concern you have is that somehow this makes us illusionRay objects, you have missed the point . As aspects of FSC we are as real as. It is the costumes [human forms and consequential mis-identification ]which we wear which are not actually real.


William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pmThe differences [even in the immaterial universe] are because of the perceptions and acommpanying expression of said belief systems, and just as in this universe, vary from extremely pleasing to horrifically nasty...all the result of not understanding that all percieved difference, is illusion [untrue].
Completely disagree, because reality is not built on perception, again. It exists regardless what we think. Spiritual variety is not illusion. But it differs from the dualistic pain/pleasure principle of the material world. There everything is absolute, and therefore perfect in every way, not partaking of the dualism we find here.
You are speaking of a particular aspect of the spiritual universe. I am speaking of the different aspects which can be examined and explored and experienced.
What you speak of is the aspect which realises the truth that there is no separation that is real. That is why therein what is being experienced is actually real. The realisation makes this so. That which is [of its own volition] seeing the separate as real, is that which is unreal...under the illusion that it is real.
William wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:47 pmAnd how better to experience that than to understand we are all First Source having our experiences...The notion calms the stormy seas and allows for a much smoother ride...
It is good that you have that sense of no separation. That is a very good thing. All is one indeed. But not to the exclusion of spiritual variety. A gold mine is one gold mine, but there are many individual pieces of gold contained within the one gold mine.
There is variety, but that does not make the variety real. I think your main problem with understanding my position on this is that you have yet to acknowledge that which is real is that which is having the experience of separation, not the experience of separation itself.
In that, no matter how incredible the variety is, it opporates as one being...FSC and in the case of your particular example, knowingly.

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #48

Post by Dimmesdale »

[Replying to William in post #48]

There is way too much for me to unpack. I disagree with a great deal with it, but it seems to me a daunting task to debate you on everything and honestly I don't have the patience at this time. Thank you for sharing your views with me William though, even if we disagree profoundly in many places. Hopefully we can have more exchanges in the future. Somewhat clearer exchanges, I find your style of argumentation difficult, but maybe I will read you better in the future. Peace out.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #49

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the OP:

Please bear with me while I relearn the formatting...

[quote="OP"]
I would like to introduce the concept of realization. Realization is the way to true knowledge...
[/quote]
That "true knowledge" has me fear you'd reject just plain old knowledge. I see no reason to follow such thinking.

[quote="OP"]
...
Where does God come in? It comes from you realizing that you are omniscient, and everything exist in you.
...
[/quote]
If I'm omniscient, how come I don't know the specific composition of the atmospheres of all planets in the universe? Or how come women get upset when I miss their birthday, and then get upset when I ask em how old they are?

God/s are never shown to be anything but human thought.

[quote="OP"]
...
Is intuition a product of realization or learning?
...
[/quote]
Seems to me a bit of both.

[quote="OP"]
Please offer me a scientific reason for relying on learning over intuition.
[/quote]
Here ya go...

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 03225/full

Intuition and the Dunning-Kruger effect are fast friends.
Some say it came from Memphis down in Tennessee
Or it drifted in from Georgia about 1953
Just as long as it's greasy, as long as it's fast
As long as it's pumpin' honey, it's gonna last

It's the hillbilly rock, beat it with a drum
Playin' them guitars like shootin' from a gun
Keepin' up the rhythm, steady as a clock
Doin' a little thing called the hillbilly rock
- Marty Stuart

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Re: Realization leads to God

Post #50

Post by William »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:28 am From the OP:

Please bear with me while I relearn the formatting...

Testing before posting - learning how to use the formatting...

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