For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Athetotheist
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For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #1

Post by Athetotheist »

.....consider booking a trip to this adventure camp resort atop the off-limits "ice wall" surrounding the flat earth.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/firs ... index.html

nobspeople
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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #2

Post by nobspeople »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:51 am .....consider booking a trip to this adventure camp resort atop the off-limits "ice wall" surrounding the flat earth.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/firs ... index.html
No flat eather's in my life!!
I made an effort once to listen to a flat earther on a podcast and try to understand why he believed as he did. I stopped after about 45 minutes as the best he could muster was referencing the UN's flag. "Why do you think the UN's flag shows the earth the way it does?" was the jest of his support for his position.
SMH

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #3

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:53 pmI made an effort once to listen to a flat earther on a podcast and try to understand why he believed as he did. I stopped after about 45 minutes as the best he could muster was referencing the UN's flag. "Why do you think the UN's flag shows the earth the way it does?" was the jest of his support for his position.
SMH
They believe the earth is flat because the bits they can see are flat and because they have no personally-verifiable evidence that it is instead a sphere. We believe as we do not because we have seen, but because we have been told. It's quite necessary but in my view it's equally necessary to be aware of when you're just trusting someone, versus when you have seen for yourself. This is the value of flat earth: To teach us that.

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #4

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:48 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:53 pmI made an effort once to listen to a flat earther on a podcast and try to understand why he believed as he did. I stopped after about 45 minutes as the best he could muster was referencing the UN's flag. "Why do you think the UN's flag shows the earth the way it does?" was the jest of his support for his position.
SMH
They believe the earth is flat because the bits they can see are flat and because they have no personally-verifiable evidence that it is instead a sphere. We believe as we do not because we have seen, but because we have been told. It's quite necessary but in my view it's equally necessary to be aware of when you're just trusting someone, versus when you have seen for yourself. This is the value of flat earth: To teach us that.
Unless you know everything, it's most all taught to us. This doesn't mean we shouldn't question, but within reason. If 100 things are provided to us to show us XYZ, then we should believe it if we don't have the means to see if for ourselves. (likewise, seeing and experiencing it doesn't mean believing it necessarily).
Going forward, using what we've learned, we should be able to eliminate the BS.
In other words, there's more shown by experts to say 'the earth isn't flat' than there is from people that say 'the world is flat'.

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #5

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:13 pmUnless you know everything, it's most all taught to us. This doesn't mean we shouldn't question, but within reason. If 100 things are provided to us to show us XYZ, then we should believe it if we don't have the means to see if for ourselves.
And I don't question that the earth is a sphere. I just well understand when I'm just trusting somebody and when I can see for myself.

In modern day people don't understand that. You can (and I think, should) trust, as you say, within reason, but the understanding that you're doing that is equally necessary.

The fact that people entirely lack this understanding is why we still have a pandemic on our hands killing people when there is a vaccine. The anti-vaxx people well understand they'd be trusting, and they don't want to. And whenever someone throws around "the science! you're stupid!" it pushes more people onto that train, because this is exactly the kind of bullying tactic people use when they really are trying to inject you with poison. The bullies don't see that they're doing this because they don't understand that they're just trusting someone. But they're the ones killing people, no question about it.

You can't act like you're going to shoot someone and claim innocence because you threatened them with what ultimately turned out to be a toy gun. They don't know that.

You do things that send up those red flags, and the burden is on you for what happens next. If that's you getting shot in self-defence, in areas where self-defence is allowed, the court will generally side with the person who legitimately felt threatened. Bullying people by calling them stupid and telling them they're ignoring "the science" is exactly what a real poisoner would do. You can't blame them for thinking someone who acts like a poisoner is one.

This is where internet culture is to blame as well. The people actually giving out the vaccine are hardly the ones bulling people with accusations of stupidity, but whenever people catch a whiff of a position they can use to become dominant and ridicule, they will adopt that position reflexively and ridicule the less dominant side. It's not about who's right; the people with the dominant position didn't adopt it because it is right - they adopted it because it was dominant.
Last edited by Purple Knight on Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #6

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:21 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:13 pmUnless you know everything, it's most all taught to us. This doesn't mean we shouldn't question, but within reason. If 100 things are provided to us to show us XYZ, then we should believe it if we don't have the means to see if for ourselves.
And I don't question that the earth is a sphere. I just well understand when I'm just trusting somebody and when I can see for myself.

In modern day people don't understand that. You can (and I think, should) trust, as you say, within reason, but the understanding that you're doing that is equally necessary.

The fact that people entirely lack this understanding is why we still have a pandemic on our hands killing people when there is a vaccine. The anti-vaxx people well understand they'd be trusting, and they don't want to. And whenever someone throws around "the science! you're stupid!" it pushes more people onto that train, because this is exactly the kind of bullying tactic people use when they really are trying to inject you with poison. The bullies don't see that they're doing this because they don't understand that they're just trusting someone. But they're the ones killing people, no question about it.
Trust is a tricky thing. Once someone is burned, they oft times refuse to trust (or don't trust as easily). Then there are those that don't trust 'just 'cause' and out of spite.
If that only impacts their lives, fine. But when it starts to impact the lives of others, that causes issues. But at what point dose that cross the line, as we're all connected in some fashion?
The delivery of 'facts' does effect people, but only to a point. The education system in the USA has been lacking for a long time for many reasons. And we're reaping the benefits of it now and for a long time to come.

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #7

Post by Purple Knight »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pmIf that only impacts their lives, fine. But when it starts to impact the lives of others, that causes issues. But at what point does that cross the line, as we're all connected in some fashion?
In this case we're all culpable. We have a culture that values the dominance of a position over the arguments for that position, and none of us has fought sufficiently against this trend to overcome it. In my view, if I die because Joe Schlo wasn't vaccinated, that's my just desserts for tolerating such a culture.

I value Reason probably more than I value any other non-physical thing. And I do legitimately wonder about great people throughout history saying that when it's bad enough, I really ought to be rebelling. This is the one thing where I can't help but think I really should be out there shooting. It's intolerable, yet I tolerate it. If I die of it, I deserve it.

Someone other than me being vaccinated for my benefit is a privilege, not a right. I didn't take the steps to create a culture where that can easily happen so I don't deserve that benefit. I didn't dig the well, so I don't deserve clean water.

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #8

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #7]
Someone other than me being vaccinated for my benefit is a privilege, not a right. I didn't take the steps to create a culture where that can easily happen so I don't deserve that benefit. I didn't dig the well, so I don't deserve clean water.
Are you saying this in earnest?

None of us is independent; we are all inTERdependent. Does the carpenter say to the farmer, "I don't deserve to eat the food you grew"? Does the farmer say to the carpenter, "I don't deserve to live in the house you built"? Do you say, "I didn't go to medical school and learn how to perform this life-saving operation on myself, so I don't deserve it"?

Isn't life about stepping outside of ourselves and doing for the other? We have to be our brother's keeper, because we can't provide everything we need for ourselves. We can't fight all of our own battles; we need each other's help. Having someone get vaccinated for your benefit isn't a privilege or a right; it's that person's moral duty not to be a danger to you.

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #9

Post by nobspeople »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:37 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pmIf that only impacts their lives, fine. But when it starts to impact the lives of others, that causes issues. But at what point does that cross the line, as we're all connected in some fashion?
In this case we're all culpable. We have a culture that values the dominance of a position over the arguments for that position, and none of us has fought sufficiently against this trend to overcome it. In my view, if I die because Joe Schlo wasn't vaccinated, that's my just desserts for tolerating such a culture.

I value Reason probably more than I value any other non-physical thing. And I do legitimately wonder about great people throughout history saying that when it's bad enough, I really ought to be rebelling. This is the one thing where I can't help but think I really should be out there shooting. It's intolerable, yet I tolerate it. If I die of it, I deserve it.

Someone other than me being vaccinated for my benefit is a privilege, not a right. I didn't take the steps to create a culture where that can easily happen so I don't deserve that benefit. I didn't dig the well, so I don't deserve clean water.
I can see how that makes sense to some. We're all connected to some degree. Being more civilized, I'd suspect people would want to do the best for everyone. But alas, that's not how humans work. Maybe that's why christians crave heaven?

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Re: For the Flat-Earther in your life.....

Post #10

Post by Purple Knight »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:02 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #7]
Someone other than me being vaccinated for my benefit is a privilege, not a right. I didn't take the steps to create a culture where that can easily happen so I don't deserve that benefit. I didn't dig the well, so I don't deserve clean water.
Are you saying this in earnest?

None of us is independent; we are all inTERdependent. Does the carpenter say to the farmer, "I don't deserve to eat the food you grew"?
He should if society came for the farmer with pitchforks and he didn't defend him.
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:02 pmIsn't life about stepping outside of ourselves and doing for the other? We have to be our brother's keeper, because we can't provide everything we need for ourselves. We can't fight all of our own battles; we need each other's help.
Correct. But it can't be a right, because more people need my help than I can give help. I can't save every starving child. And the ones I don't save, I have cut that interdependence and I'd better ask for no help from him.
Athetotheist wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:02 pmHaving someone get vaccinated for your benefit isn't a privilege or a right; it's that person's moral duty not to be a danger to you.
Sure, if it's my moral duty to help him out too. It goes both ways. In this case nobody helped him when he was in need. Instead they bullied him and made him think he was getting poisoned, just to make him look stupid and themselves look smarter.

There's no question that we want the better society where we all help each other when necessary. We have to act in a way that brings that society about in order to deserve the benefits of that society. At very least we have to act in a way that prevents such a society from being torn down.

If you poop in the well, you don't deserve clean water.

Maybe you didn't poop in the well, maybe I didn't, but we all watched them doing it and did nothing to stop them.

We became a society of cleverness and intellectual/moral superiority rather than one of reason. It's no surprise that in such a society, people won't trust "the experts" when socially, expert just means more-clever-than-you-and-adopts-dominant-position-then-makes-you-look-stupid-for-own-amusement. I watched this happen, and now I'm reaping the just desserts of it.
nobspeople wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:56 amI can see how that makes sense to some. We're all connected to some degree. Being more civilized, I'd suspect people would want to do the best for everyone. But alas, that's not how humans work. Maybe that's why christians crave heaven?
We all get the world we create. It also makes sense to me that this is what the concept of Heaven is all about. We want a clean bed but we don't want to clean it. Even if we had a paradise, we'd screw it up.

In my idea of the fall, Adam would start chopping trees. God would say, be careful, you must plant some new ones. Adam would shrug and notice that there were plenty and carry on as he was doing, until all the trees had been chopped and only one apple remained. Now you really have to sow, says God. Eve says, I'm hungry, and Adam gives her the last resource instead of planting it for later. That's my idea of paradise lost.

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