When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #191It is not the body that is possessed. Possession is of the mind and spirit. The body is only the outer appearance. Possession is when a mind controls another mind. People can be possessed by other people.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #192Unless you are a Trinitarian, God is Spirit, who makes a sanctuary/residence in men/prophets, and in this case, an ass per Numbers 22:28, by way of his Spirit. One can say, that your presence is merely a dream of someone else, but it would be all "speculation". You either have a foundation, or your whole life and concepts are based on "speculation". If the devil can speak through a serpent, God can speak through an ass. If everything is based on conceptual speculation, you may just be a figment of someone else's imagination. Should they wake up, your presence will simply be a lost image.Miles wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:03 amSo it appears.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:53 pmApparently, Luke, the teller of other people's stales, also told a different story of one man, who was possessed of a myriad of demons, called "legions", who were cast into a "herd of many swine".Miles wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:55 pmJust because they can, aside from the two unfortunate swine of Matthew 8:32, doesn't mean they do. You said "the Demons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine," implying that, beside the two swine of Matthew 8, demons reside in other swine. And I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for this.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:50 pmMatthew 8:31, "send us into the herd of swine". Apparently, demons can reside in swine, except some humans seem to be able to cope better that swine, but not without exhibiting strange conduct.Miles wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:51 pmWhat difference does it make that the two swine were among a herd of swine? Except for the two unfortunate pigs here, the Bible still doesn't say, or even imply, that demons reside in swine; your contention.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:27 amMiles wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:20 pmWhere does the Bible say demons reside in swine?2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:53 pmDemons, unclean spirits, do not have bodies. They reside in persons or animals such as swine.William wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:17 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #158]
How can one test if demons exist in human form, as they just look like humans.
However, re the OPQ - one could try summoning a demon and see what happens.
Evocation
Apparently one can do this with angels too.
Of course in Matthew 8 Jesus is said to have put demons into swine, but that was a single incident involving only two demons and two pigs.
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You are arguing against yourself. Matthew 8:31 refers to a "herd of swine".
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Ah, the spirit in Numbers 22:28 refers to god, who makes the donkey speak.Apparently, animals, an ass, can speak by the means of spirits (Number 22:28).
Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's all speculation.The alternate home for the demons, would be the abyss, and the demons would surely prefer swine instead, but once inserted, may have second thoughts.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #193What is the difference between 'mind' and 'spirit'?
Like an avatar?The body is only the outer appearance.
Are you saying that 'people' are 'minds' not bodies/avatars?Possession is when a mind controls another mind. People can be possessed by other people.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #194[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #192]
But since the source of the voice remains invisible, we are left to our own devices as to determining which is which.
And since the voice comes from an invisible source, we do not even know if that source is playing both the part of the devil and the part of the god.
But we do understand that it could be possible that one source is playing two roles.
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So it is not about who is speaking through what instrument, but what is being said, which determines whether it be 'god' or 'devil'?If the devil can speak through a serpent, God can speak through an ass.
But since the source of the voice remains invisible, we are left to our own devices as to determining which is which.
And since the voice comes from an invisible source, we do not even know if that source is playing both the part of the devil and the part of the god.
But we do understand that it could be possible that one source is playing two roles.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #195If you should dare to read the bible, you will find out that the Satan, is subservient to God, and that God uses the "beasts"/kings, the "dragon"/devil, and the "false prophet" to bring about his will. The source of the authority of the beast, is from the "dragon"/devil (Revelation 13). The devil has already rebelled, and is on a path to the lake of fire. The devil's desire is to take down as many with him as possible, and his siren song seems to attract the "many", by way of his "false prophets" (Matthew 7:13). The present law of nature, for every action there is an equal opposite reaction, such as to balance evil, there is good, and sweet to balance sour. The present creation is based on this basic premise. When you get rid of evil, you must create a new heaven and earth, which is not the heaven and earth we now live in. It is the "science" of Ying and Yang, not the science of political hacks and the "elite" class. The 1st world war wiped out most of the elite, pampered children of Queen Victoria, which included all of the royalty of Europe, by them eating each other. Now, we are looking at the elite/kings/leaders being wiped out in a similar manner, with the demons in control (Revelation 16).William wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:33 am [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #192]
So it is not about who is speaking through what instrument, but what is being said, which determines whether it be 'god' or 'devil'?If the devil can speak through a serpent, God can speak through an ass.
But since the source of the voice remains invisible, we are left to our own devices as to determining which is which.
And since the voice comes from an invisible source, we do not even know if that source is playing both the part of the devil and the part of the god.
But we do understand that it could be possible that one source is playing two rolls.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #196[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #188]
You're mixing up the layman's use of the word "theory" with the scientific meaning. A theory in science is not a hypothesis. To reach the status of a scientific theory, a hypothesis has to be tested extensively to the point that it is deemed to have been confirmed correct by measurement, observation, etc. Evolution has reached the status of a scientific theory because it has met this condition, although like everything in science there are always refinements as new information becomes available. A hypothesis may be an unsubstantiated hunch, but a theory is most definitely not (in the science world).As for theories, which by definition, are unsubstantiated hunches (hypothesis) ...
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #197They are the same. Mind, self, spirit are one being.
The body is an instrument of the spirit. It enables the spirit to experience physical life. Mental/spiritual states can be manifest in the body.Like an avatar?
Yes, we are spirits temporarily joined to bodies.
Are you saying that 'people' are 'minds' not bodies/avatars?
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EYES:……………………………….…Medium
HAIR:……………………………….…Medium
WEIGHT:………………………….…Medium
HEIGHT:…………………………..…Medium
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES…None
NUMBER OF FINGERS:………..Ten
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What did you expect?
Talons?
Oversize incisors?
Green saliva?
Madness?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #198Websters-DrNoGods wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:00 am You're mixing up the layman's use of the word "theory" with the scientific meaning. A theory in science is not a hypothesis. To reach the status of a scientific theory, a hypothesis has to be tested extensively to the point that it is deemed to have been confirmed correct by measurement, observation, etc. Evolution has reached the status of a scientific theory because it has met this condition, although like everything in science there are always refinements as new information becomes available. A hypothesis may be an unsubstantiated hunch, but a theory is most definitely not (in the science world).
Essential Meaning of theory
1: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events
a widely accepted scientific theory
Einstein's theory of relativity
2: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true
Her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn.
There are a number of different theories about the cause of the disease.
3: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject
He is a specialist in film theory and criticism.
music theory
When a theory is proved to be true (especially in mathematics) it becomes a theorem.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #199[Replying to mgb in post #197]
Search "Avatar Meaning"
► a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth; an incarnate divine teacher.
► an icon or figure representing a particular person in a video game, internet forum, etc.
"conversation is depicted in a balloon over the avatar's head"
Further to that you are arguing that the avatar can be occupied by more than one mind, and this also appears to be true.
Where the idea of a demonic mind occupying another minds body [avatar] is like one mind being hacked by another mind and taking over the control of the avatar.
And the idea of a demon is along the lines of "a mind which is destructive in relation to a none demonic mind?
Therein, is a battle being fought for control of the avatar, in order that the avatar can be used for the purpose each [opposing] mind wants to use it for?
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What is the difference between 'mind' and 'spirit'?
Okay - so when you wrote that "possession is of the mind/spirit"...They are the same. Mind, self, spirit are one being.
The body is only the outer appearance.
Like an avatar?
...it seems to be that is what you are saying. The body is "like an Avatar."The body is an instrument of the spirit. It enables the spirit to experience physical life. Mental/spiritual states can be manifest in the body.
Search "Avatar Meaning"
► a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth; an incarnate divine teacher.
► an icon or figure representing a particular person in a video game, internet forum, etc.
"conversation is depicted in a balloon over the avatar's head"
Are you saying that 'people' are 'minds' not bodies/avatars?
Okay - definitely like an Avatar. The human form is used by the spirit/mind which occupies it.Yes, we are spirits temporarily joined to bodies.
Further to that you are arguing that the avatar can be occupied by more than one mind, and this also appears to be true.
Where the idea of a demonic mind occupying another minds body [avatar] is like one mind being hacked by another mind and taking over the control of the avatar.
And the idea of a demon is along the lines of "a mind which is destructive in relation to a none demonic mind?
Therein, is a battle being fought for control of the avatar, in order that the avatar can be used for the purpose each [opposing] mind wants to use it for?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #200This thread asks if the existence of demons can be tested. Can you provide verifiable evidence that your claim is true? How could we test the truth of your claim?
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom