Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

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John Human
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #1

Post by John Human »

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #291

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #288]
I probably shoulda picked up on that, but my thoughts were into the whole hallucination hearing.
Yeah. I was going to comment on what you said about that as well. but forgot to.
What you describe, I have only experienced [consciously] on a number of separate occasions.
1: I was a wee nipper having an afternoon nap when I was wakened by a voice beside me saying "I hate you" in a very menacing manner. I turned to the direction the voice had come from, but no one was there.
2: As a young adult, I was woken by the sound of a tin litter bin being rolled across the floor, followed by definite footfalls upon a wooden floor and doors being roughly pushed open. I was alone at the time, in a Christian camp building. [It was off-season and I was using it without permission, as a place to shelter and sleep overnight.]
The sound of the footfalls stopped outside the door of the bunk-room I had chosen. Then I heard a deep menacing slow-laugh from whoever it was at the door...[the door was open but it was dark and I couldn't see anyone...]
[3:] Months after this, I was at home in bed when I awoke to the same deep menacing laughter and saw at the end of my bed, the being the laughter came from.
[4:] The next night I awoke feeling strong hands around my wrists but whoever had grabbed me was invisible. I was pulled up from the bed from a horizontal position to a vertical one, and then the invisible grip let go and I found myself floating above the bed...it was my first conscious OOBE.

In each instance the story begins "I was sleeping" so it is not exactly the kind of thing you are saying about the hallucination hearing, which you don't mention you have because you are woken by them.
With this in mind, yeah, I seek your voice, and your wisdom, throughout these threads.
Likewise. I get something from everyone. And I get much from the few, like yourself.

It is really just a case of settling in and swapping stories without judgement. Like being in the woods around a fire with Friends.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #292

Post by Swami »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:09 pm First, let me say I sincerely preciate your willingness to help in this matter. Not just me, but all who may benefit.
Glad to be of help O:)
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:09 pm I think I was confused. Is yoga directly related to religious beliefs, or can / does it kinda stand on its own?
Yoga itself was meant to be a spiritual and practical philosophy. It is based on Hinduism. Most of my views on mystical experiences and reality come from putting spiritual yoga into practice.

There is the Western commercialized version that focuses on the physical and mental aspects and this has been made to stand on its own. Without the goal of spirituality, this type of yoga amounts to physical and mental exercises. All of the health benefits I included before were based on this type of yoga.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #293

Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:06 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:09 pm First, let me say I sincerely preciate your willingness to help in this matter. Not just me, but all who may benefit.
Glad to be of help O:)
JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:09 pm I think I was confused. Is yoga directly related to religious beliefs, or can / does it kinda stand on its own?
Yoga itself was meant to be a spiritual and practical philosophy. It is based on Hinduism. Most of my views on mystical experiences and reality come from putting spiritual yoga into practice.

There is the Western commercialized version that focuses on the physical and mental aspects and this has been made to stand on its own. Without the goal of spirituality, this type of yoga amounts to physical and mental exercises. All of the health benefits I included before were based on this type of yoga.
So how is yoga, whichever version, going to provide the ability to test for the existence of demons? Downward facing dog:

Image

Oh look at that, there's a demon on my toes.


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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #294

Post by Swami »

For those seeking more, here you find a good introduction to Yoga for Westerners
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... e-of-asana

"In fact, the Yoga Sutra, the most authoritative text of yoga, defines “yoga” as mastery over the modifications of the mind; the techniques that enable an aspirant to achieve that mastery are the techniques of yoga. And according to all the commentators, both the perfectly balanced state of mind and the path leading to that state are “yoga.”"
Tcg wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:18 am So how is yoga, whichever version, going to provide the ability to test for the existence of demons? Downward facing dog:

Oh look at that, there's a demon on my toes.

Tcg
Along the way, a yogi may develop the ability to perceive spirits but one should not get stuck there. This is just a sign that there are different levels of awareness. My ultimate goal was to discover the nature of awareness itself. Who or what is having this experience? If scientists and even religionists answered this question first before getting into "what", as in the objects, of their experience, then they would have a fundamentally different worldview. Pursuing the answer to this question led me to the nature of awareness. It led me to the ultimate realization, the highest level of awareness, which is that all exist in consciousness.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #295

Post by mgb »

The mind affects the body and vise versa. Chemical states can be mentally induced and mental states can be chemically induced.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #296

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Swami wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:47 pm Along the way, a yogi may develop the ability to perceive spirits but one should not get stuck there.
The problem here is being able to confirm the claim.

We can all swear up and down to've perceived all manner of spirits, ghosts and goblins.

This is nothing more'n the Christian who claims to be possessed by the "holy ghost" in an obvious ploy to invoke "spiritual authority".
This is just a sign that there are different levels of awareness. My ultimate goal was to discover the nature of awareness itself. Who or what is having this experience? If scientists and even religionists answered this question first before getting into "what", as in the objects, of their experience, then they would have a fundamentally different worldview. Pursuing the answer to this question led me to the nature of awareness. It led me to the ultimate realization, the highest level of awareness, which is that all exist in consciousness.
More unevidenced, untestable assertions.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #297

Post by Tcg »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:35 am The mind affects the body and vise versa. Chemical states can be mentally induced and mental states can be chemically induced.
Sounds interesting, but I don't see any verifiable evidence to support this claim. It is a common trait of posts in this thread.


Tcg
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #298

Post by Tcg »

Swami wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:47 pm For those seeking more, here you find a good introduction to Yoga for Westerners
https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... e-of-asana

"In fact, the Yoga Sutra, the most authoritative text of yoga, defines “yoga” as mastery over the modifications of the mind; the techniques that enable an aspirant to achieve that mastery are the techniques of yoga. And according to all the commentators, both the perfectly balanced state of mind and the path leading to that state are “yoga.”"
Tcg wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:18 am So how is yoga, whichever version, going to provide the ability to test for the existence of demons? Downward facing dog:

Oh look at that, there's a demon on my toes.

Tcg
Along the way, a yogi may develop the ability to perceive spirits but one should not get stuck there. This is just a sign that there are different levels of awareness. My ultimate goal was to discover the nature of awareness itself. Who or what is having this experience? If scientists and even religionists answered this question first before getting into "what", as in the objects, of their experience, then they would have a fundamentally different worldview. Pursuing the answer to this question led me to the nature of awareness. It led me to the ultimate realization, the highest level of awareness, which is that all exist in consciousness.
Once again, no verifiable evidence of demons and no suggestion of how the existence of demons can be tested. The OP asks, "Do demons exist? Can that be tested?" Where your yogi skills may have led you is irrelevant to the questions under consideration. You haven't even attempted to address them.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #299

Post by mgb »

Tcg wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:45 pm
mgb wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:35 am The mind affects the body and vise versa. Chemical states can be mentally induced and mental states can be chemically induced.
Sounds interesting, but I don't see any verifiable evidence to support this claim. It is a common trait of posts in this thread.
Tcg
This is a generally known fact. The 'fight or flight' response alters our hormonal state because our mental awareness primes our chemistry. Even looking at an adventure film can prime our biochemical system. There are many examples in medicine of how mental states can create imbalances in our biochemistry. Mental stress can manifest as a physical skin rash etc, etc...

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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

Post #300

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mgb wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:58 am This is a generally known fact. The 'fight or flight' response alters our hormonal state because our mental awareness primes our chemistry. Even looking at an adventure film can prime our biochemical system. There are many examples in medicine of how mental states can create imbalances in our biochemistry. Mental stress can manifest as a physical skin rash etc, etc...
I don't think anyone would reject that.

It's the trying to show such to be the product of demons is where the issue lies.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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