How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Purple Knight
Guru
Posts: 2113
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 670 times
Been thanked: 407 times

How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

User avatar
The Barbarian
Sage
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
Has thanked: 96 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #191

Post by The Barbarian »

As requested, repeating some current problems in evolutionary theory;

1. relative importance of neutral mutations and very slightly harmful or useful mutations in evolution.
2. Relative importance of gradual and rapid evolutionary changes
3. How complex features evolve.
4. Trends in evolution; how do they happen, and what causes them.

You're on.

(crickets quietly chriping)

User avatar
DrNoGods
Guru
Posts: 1927
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ
Has thanked: 356 times
Been thanked: 831 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #192

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #193]
You're on.
It appears detective Holmes has fled the thread ... maybe to search for more clues to support his proposition that evolution has been falsified? Could the butler have done it? Or possibly it was the chauffeur? We may never know. Sure would have been useful to see the mysterious incriminating list though, and examine it for valid points.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18699
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1669 times
Been thanked: 1132 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #193

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:57 am The bottom line here - and much of this thread serves as evidence for this - is that most if not all evolution advocates have completely discounted the possibility that evolution could be wrong.
What I've discounted is your continuing to carry on about 'problems' you absolutely refuse to present for analysis.

If someone, anyone, presented evidence that evolution doesn't occur, I'd be please to dismiss it.

What you're doing here is an insult - implying folks're close-minded.
Because they've done that they must then claim (or at least believe) that there are no significant evidential or epistemological problems facing the theory.
And what you've done is made claims of "problems", and have absolute refused to present em for examination.
This is their position reached as a result of their own studies, research and so on, but if they are wrong then those methods they have used must be unreliable.
So we've repeatedly asked you to present your claimed 'problems', that we might discover if your methodology is what's wrong.

Thus far, in this endeavor, the most rational conclusion to be had is that you're agraid of having your methodology found errant.
But if their methods are unreliable (i.e. majority is always right) that unreliability will itself preclude them from ever discovering that they are wrong!
Don't that just rip up the mater patch.

You refuse to present your 'problems', then accuse others of being afraid of being wrong.
This is the real evolution debate IMHO, it is the mindset, they way that people decide what to believe, it is deeply flawed when it comes to evolution.
I submit that until you present your 'problems' for analysis, we can't possibly decide what to believe.

However, by not presenting your now famous "problems I refuse to present", you risk the observer believing you might well be lying.
If I asked a reasonably educated bunch of people to list the serious problems facing say general relativity, I'd get a list, if I asked this about cosmology I'd get a list, if I asked it about brain science I'd get a list, nobody would hesitate to share that information.
Smoke and mirrors, misdirection and nothing.

You sit on a throne of nothing.
But when this is asked for evolution there is no such list and that's the problem with evolution.
Another member has already posted a list.

Whereas you've yet to put forth your 'problems'.

And nothing but excuses as to why you can't show your claims are truth.


Let this thread stand as testament that some seek to 'debate' by obfuscation, excuse making, and anything else but actually showing their claims approach within a light year of the truth.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Under Probation
Posts: 18699
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 1669 times
Been thanked: 1132 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #194

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:55 pm Just FYI I'm finished with this thread, I have nothing more to add and my position on this entire subject is clear I think.
Bout as clear as chocolate milk.
Thanks for engaging with me, all those who did.
And thanks for showing how some like to make claims, only they don't like to support em.
Discovery is finding things that exist.
Invention is using things discovered.

Create that path and engineer a metamorphosis.

- William

User avatar
Jose Fly
Sage
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 370 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #195

Post by Jose Fly »

[Replying to The Barbarian in post #191]

Hey Barbarian! It's great to see you still fighting the good fight. :D
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Sage
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 370 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #196

Post by Jose Fly »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:28 amAnd thanks for showing how some like to make claims, only they don't like to support em.
I read through most of this thread and as someone who's been in these debates for some 20 years now, I was pretty amused at how it followed the same basic pattern as most others. Specifically, a creationist comes into a thread and makes claims and assertions, and then the rest of the thread is a bunch of people chasing the creationist around around trying to get them to back up the claims/assertions and answer basic questions....until the creationist sticks their nose up in the air, declares it all to be beneath them, and leaves.

It's pretty transparent behavior that clearly shows the original claims and assertions are just that.....empty claims and assertions. But the creationist can't admit that so they spend far, far more time dodging questions and requests than it would've taken to just answer them in the first place.

It's like when someone watching basketball games at the playground starts telling everyone how great of a player he is and how he could easily beat everyone out there single-handedly. But whenever the players say "Ok then, step on the court and let's see what you got", suddenly the big talker doesn't have the right shoes, his mom is calling him, the other guys would just cheat anyways, etc.

In both cases it's the same thing.....all big talk with nothing of substance behind it. The only thing I wonder is, what makes people do that? Don't they realize that everyone else sees right through their charade? Do they actually think anyone would find their behaviors compelling? Do they walk away telling themselves "Boy, I sure showed them"?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Sherlock Holmes
Under Suspension
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:42 am
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #197

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:57 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:28 amAnd thanks for showing how some like to make claims, only they don't like to support em.
I read through most of this thread and as someone who's been in these debates for some 20 years now, I was pretty amused at how it followed the same basic pattern as most others. Specifically, a creationist comes into a thread and makes claims and assertions, and then the rest of the thread is a bunch of people chasing the creationist around around trying to get them to back up the claims/assertions and answer basic questions....until the creationist sticks their nose up in the air, declares it all to be beneath them, and leaves.

It's pretty transparent behavior that clearly shows the original claims and assertions are just that.....empty claims and assertions. But the creationist can't admit that so they spend far, far more time dodging questions and requests than it would've taken to just answer them in the first place.

It's like when someone watching basketball games at the playground starts telling everyone how great of a player he is and how he could easily beat everyone out there single-handedly. But whenever the players say "Ok then, step on the court and let's see what you got", suddenly the big talker doesn't have the right shoes, his mom is calling him, the other guys would just cheat anyways, etc.

In both cases it's the same thing.....all big talk with nothing of substance behind it. The only thing I wonder is, what makes people do that? Don't they realize that everyone else sees right through their charade? Do they actually think anyone would find their behaviors compelling? Do they walk away telling themselves "Boy, I sure showed them"?
This is a mischaracterization of the thread IMHO.

First it is 100% paraphrasing and analogy (not unlike many of the replies I addressed) and that's almost always a sign of a weak position, you did not quote a single sentence that I wrote, what you say above is a good example of a strawman argument, that some here thanked you for this post is no surprise given their shared enthusiasm for weak debating tactics.

Every "claim" I make in this or any thread is or can always be, supported by some data, evidence or argument, whether I choose to present that is another matter entirely and does not prove that I have no supporting position, you're welcome to make that inference of course but it is just an inference.

I have in many cases in this thread stated facts, facts do not require "backing up", like the fact that the fossil record everywhere exhibits discontinuity and nowhere exhibits continuity, this is a fact and if you disagree then it is for you to present evidence not I.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Sage
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 370 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #198

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:56 amThis is a mischaracterization of the thread IMHO.
I'm not surprised you see it that way.
First it is 100% paraphrasing and analogy (not unlike many of the replies I addressed) and that's almost always a sign of a weak position, you did not quote a single sentence that I wrote, what you say above is a good example of a strawman argument, that some here thanked you for this post is no surprise given their shared enthusiasm for weak debating tactics.
You might have a point, except for the fact that I'm not the first person to reach the same conclusion about this thread and your behavior in it. In fact, I'd say what I posted was rather redundant with what multiple other folks had already said, so it's not like my position is the outlier here.
Every "claim" I make in this or any thread is or can always be, supported by some data, evidence or argument, whether I choose to present that is another matter entirely and does not prove that I have no supporting position, you're welcome to make that inference of course but it is just an inference.
Yeah, we've all seen your boasts about how great your game is. Funny though how whenever it comes time to step on the court and show it, suddenly you can't be bothered.
I have in many cases in this thread stated facts, facts do not require "backing up", like the fact that the fossil record everywhere exhibits discontinuity and nowhere exhibits continuity, this is a fact and if you disagree then it is for you to present evidence not I.
Exactly...you've been doing the stereotypical creationist thing....making a bunch of empty assertions and then demanding that it's up to everyone else to "prove me wrong". FYI, that's the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof". https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Also, what exactly do you mean by "nowhere exhibits continuity"? If there were say, a complete fossil record of a taxonomic order, with hundreds of speciation events recorded in it and no "missing links", would that be an example of "exhibiting continuity"?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Sherlock Holmes
Under Suspension
Posts: 1612
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:42 am
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #199

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:56 amThis is a mischaracterization of the thread IMHO.
I'm not surprised you see it that way.
First it is 100% paraphrasing and analogy (not unlike many of the replies I addressed) and that's almost always a sign of a weak position, you did not quote a single sentence that I wrote, what you say above is a good example of a strawman argument, that some here thanked you for this post is no surprise given their shared enthusiasm for weak debating tactics.
You might have a point, except for the fact that I'm not the first person to reach the same conclusion about this thread and your behavior in it. In fact, I'd say what I posted was rather redundant with what multiple other folks had already said, so it's not like my position is the outlier here.
I think I do have a point, your remarks are nothing more than paraphrasing.

The fact that multiple people disagree with me seems to be a weak attempt at an argument from authority, as I said elsewhere the truth or falsity of a proposition is not a function of its popularity.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm
Every "claim" I make in this or any thread is or can always be, supported by some data, evidence or argument, whether I choose to present that is another matter entirely and does not prove that I have no supporting position, you're welcome to make that inference of course but it is just an inference.
Yeah, we've all seen your boasts about how great your game is. Funny though how whenever it comes time to step on the court and show it, suddenly you can't be bothered.
More paraphrasing.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm
I have in many cases in this thread stated facts, facts do not require "backing up", like the fact that the fossil record everywhere exhibits discontinuity and nowhere exhibits continuity, this is a fact and if you disagree then it is for you to present evidence not I.
Exactly...you've been doing the stereotypical creationist thing....making a bunch of empty assertions and then demanding that it's up to everyone else to "prove me wrong". FYI, that's the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof". https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
oh look, more paraphrasing.
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm Also, what exactly do you mean by "nowhere exhibits continuity"? If there were say, a complete fossil record of a taxonomic order, with hundreds of speciation events recorded in it and no "missing links", would that be an example of "exhibiting continuity"?
I mean I've never seen or encountered such a continuity in all my years, only claims based on inferred, presumed continuity. The fossil record is repeatedly held up as being superb evidence for evolution yet upon cold dispassionate inspection it is in fact evidence of abrupt non-gradual morphological changes.

This is exemplified in the Cambrian explosion, diverse, sophisticated morphologies purportedly serving as evidence for descent from a common ancestor(s) yet lacking any evidence of the hundreds of thousands of generations of imperceptible changes.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Anomalocaris and Opabina are descended from a common ancestor, none, and this is the case for all of the Cambrian fossils.

A great many disparate Cambrian fossilized beasts with mineralized exoskeleton and compound eyes are known, yet if they - any pair of them - are truly descended from a common ancestor then we'd fully expect to see fossil evidence of these since they too will have carried genes that produce mineralized exoskeletons.

But there is nothing, no trace whatsoever that such "branches" ever did exist, it all just supposition based on the presumption that evolution must have taken place because evolution is the only explanation being considered.

The evolutionist can only view all data in one way, as evidence for evolution, even when not present it is inferred as definitely having existed because, well, because we "know" evolution is true, after all, it is a fact!

When supporting evidence is found it is hailed as evidence and when it is not found it is presumed and that too then hailed as evidence, it is preposterous, a sham, yet decades and decades of conditioning means that most people simply cannot see what is in front of their face.
Last edited by Sherlock Holmes on Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Sage
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 136 times
Been thanked: 370 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #200

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:23 pmThe fact that multiple people disagree with me seems to be a weak attempt at an argument from authority, as I said elsewhere the truth or falsity of a proposition is not a function of its popularity.
You completely missed the point. The general agreement I referred to is about about your behavior in this thread, not your arguments.
oh look, more paraphrasing.
Identifying the logical fallacy you've been committing is not paraphrasing. But if you're intent on repeating this error, that's not my problem.
I mean I've never seen or encountered such a continuity in all my years, only claims based on inferred, presumed continuity. The fossil record is repeatedly held up as being superb evidence for evolution yet upon cold dispassionate inspection it is in fact evidence of abrupt non-gradual morphological changes.

This is exemplified in the Cambrian explosion, diverse, sophisticated morphologies purportedly serving as evidence for descent from a common ancestor(s) yet lacking any evidence of the hundreds of thousands of generations of imperceptible changes.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Anomalocaris and Opabina are descended from a common ancestor, none, and this is the case for all of the Cambrian fossils.

Disparate Cambrian beasts with mineralized exoskeleton fossils are known, yet if they - any pair of them - are truly descended from a common ancestor then we'd fully expect to see fossil evidence of these since they too will have carried genes that produce mineralized exoskeletons.

But there is nothing, no trace whatsoever that such "branches" ever did exist, it all just supposition based on the presumption that evolution must have taken place because evolution is the only explanation being considered.
You didn't answer the question. Again, if there were say, a complete fossil record of a taxonomic order, with hundreds of speciation events recorded in it and no "missing links", would that be an example of "exhibiting continuity"?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Post Reply