This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.
That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.
Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.
This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.
Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?
I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.
How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1131And.....?William wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:01 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #1125]
My points were to agree with what the eye tells us [humans and apes look similar] but also to show that what the eye sees is only flesh and bone, and to peel those away from what makes a personality, one is left with something distinctly non-human or ape-like.How so?
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1132Tell me how the fact that some scientists have decided to include what they call homo sapiens among the apes, "taxonomically", can make me believe that human beings are some species of ape.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1133Huh? What you believe is entirely up to you. If you don't like humans being classified among the apes, then don't accept it. FYI, no one else will really care.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1134I don't really mind.
None of you can convince me with any scientific method that I am an ape.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1135I appreciate your honesty.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1136Cooking our food provides for better energy pickup, as well as a reduction in pathogens.Eloi wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 1:47 pm I don't know who you think you're dealing with, but that's not true: we do not see any of that, and we'd never seen any of that, since "evolution" is a process that suppossily happened in millions and millions and millions of years. You are not that old. Otherwise, macroevolution is not microevolution.
PD: Are you going to try to convince me with a long speech that apes developed bigger brains because learning to cook gave them more time to think? ... I am not so easily impressed.
Sorry if that speech was too long.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1137We can't convince the chimps of it either.Eloi wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:19 pmI don't really mind.
None of you can convince me with any scientific method that I am an ape.
It doesn’t matter one's acceptance of fact, but that fact has been presented.
Humans meet all the physical / scientific criteria for being apes, whether the gods put us up to it or not.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1138What YOU believe is not the issue. "Ape" is a term coined, not by you, but by those who classify animals. Your alternate set of facts, called 'creationism' is less well explained:
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1139[Replying to Eloi in post #1134]
Taxonomy is just a classification scheme used to organize information. Since the fossil record and genetics have demonstrated conclusively that moden Homo sapiens evolved from a great ape ancestor, it makes perfect sense to classify us in that group. If you (or anyone else) can show otherwise (ie. that we didn't evolve from apes) then the taxonomy would instantly change to reflect this new information.Tell me how the fact that some scientists have decided to include what they call homo sapiens among the apes, "taxonomically", can make me believe that human beings are some species of ape.
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?
Post #1140Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:02 pmAnd.....?William wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:01 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #1125]
My points were to agree with what the eye tells us [humans and apes look similar] but also to show that what the eye sees is only flesh and bone, and to peel those away from what makes a personality, one is left with something distinctly non-human or ape-like.How so?
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The Jellyfish Image
William: The Jellyfish image is like the image of the nervous system. The nervous system is near the heart of what makes a human, a "person" whereas taxonomy is simply interested in categorizing the human being in relation to the external flesh and bone material which encases the nervous system.
The flesh and bone material does influence a persons idea of who they are, but without the nervous system, the person would not exist as a personality...so taxonomy can only offer an incomplete picture - surface scratching rather than digging deeper into what is beneath the surface. That is why the expression "Humans are Apes" is incomplete - gives an incomplete picture and defines according to that incompleteness.
In appearance, humans are more related to what Jellyfish look like - re the nervous system...once the flesh and bone are removed to reveal said system.
Consciousness goes even deeper than the nervous system, and cannot easily be pictured. I would say that consciousness does not reside only with the brain but throughout the nervous system...mostly operating without the personality being conscious of said operations, and in relation to subconscious operations [re psychology/ the human mind] the personality can connect and interact with said subconscious activity, thereby learning from that vast resource...
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