Can we debate respectfully?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Sherlock Holmes

Can we debate respectfully?

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I've listened to this debate several times over the years, it was broadcast by the BBC on radio a great many years ago.

Its a debate on the existence of God between two very respected intellectuals, Bertrand Russel and Frederick Copleston. Each of these men wrote a comprehensive history of philosophy and were well versed in philosophy, logic, history and so on, they were well matched.

What is striking is that neither party ever gets personal, they focus entirely on their opponents arguments, no petty insinuating, snide remarks or disparaging words.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell

If you prefer to skip the introductions and go right to the debate use this link.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell - No Intro

So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #2

Post by Eloi »

I think that many confuse debate with apology, and apology with demagoguery. They also confuse arguments with fallacies. I suppose that somehow those who resort to those methods feel weak to debate decently on certain issues ... or maybe they were never taught to control their emotions.
Last edited by Eloi on Thu May 26, 2022 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #3

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:49 pm So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?
Oh that's easy. In my experience, it's almost exclusively due to the behaviors of creationists. They make grand assertions (e.g., "evolution is falsified"), but then dodge every attempt to get them to back up those assertions. They ignore direct questions, no matter how many times they're asked. They misrepresent science (e.g., quote mining). They challenge us to present data that they think doesn't exist (e.g., transitional fossils, "new genetic information") only to completely ignore it when it's provided.

IOW, creationists tend to engage in rather dishonest tactics. Such is the nature of denialism.

But then when they're called on those behaviors, they moan and cry about how they're being attacked and usually run to a forum's management. That's probably one of the most frustrating aspects to trying to debate a creationist in a religious forum....they usually don't have rules against lying, but they do have rules against pointing out someone's lies.

So when a creationist shows up, makes all sorts of grand assertions, refuses to back them up, ignores follow-up questions, and demands data but ignores it after it's presented.....what's left for the science side to do? Some folks are content to let the record speak for itself and move on. However, there are others who are more interested in the psychological aspects of creationism and creationists, and therefore will press the creationist to explain and/or justify their behaviors. That's when it tends to get disrespectful.

Simply put, the reason these debates often take a disrespectful turn is because the creationists engage in dishonest behavior. I've said for years that given the amount of reality one has to deny in order to be a creationist, it's impossible to advocate for creationism in an honest manner. The closest I've seen to an "honest creationist" are those who admit up front that when push comes to shove, they will always side with the Bible over the conclusions of science. But from my POV, that's merely being honest about employing an intellectually dishonest framework.
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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #4

Post by Eloi »

One of the measures I take to avoid provocations with personal attacks from these types of forumers (and there are several of them here) is to ignore them. I guess those I don't tell will notice. What is the point of trying to reason with people who may be anything but reasonable?

Some may take the fact that they are animals too seriously (as an evolutionist told me before). What can be expected when a person tries to reason with an animal? I suppose that some of those forum members are placed here to provoke the believers by insulting them, and finally being banned from the forum ... to what purpose, I don't know, but everybody can notice it. There are also programmed automata that cannot get out of their program; and a lot of it is based on clichés and personal attacks, and nothing else.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #5

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Eloi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:21 pm One of the measures I take to avoid provocations with personal attacks from these types of forumers (and there are several of them here) is to ignore them. I guess those I don't tell will notice. What is the point of trying to reason with people who may be anything but reasonable?

Some may take the fact that they are animals too seriously (as an evolutionist told me before). What can be expected when a person tries to reason with an animal? I suppose that some of those forum members are placed here to provoke the believers by insulting them, and finally being banned from the forum ... to what purpose, I don't know, but everybody can notice it. There are also programmed automata that cannot get out of their program; and a lot of it is based on clichés and personal attacks, and nothing else.
A general rule I try to follow myself, not always successfully, is to never saying anything in a post that I would not be prepared to say to the person's face, seated around a table with other people present, impartial people who can judge my words and manners, for themselves.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #6

Post by Eloi »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:28 pm
Eloi wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 5:21 pm One of the measures I take to avoid provocations with personal attacks from these types of forumers (and there are several of them here) is to ignore them. I guess those I don't tell will notice. What is the point of trying to reason with people who may be anything but reasonable?

Some may take the fact that they are animals too seriously (as an evolutionist told me before). What can be expected when a person tries to reason with an animal? I suppose that some of those forum members are placed here to provoke the believers by insulting them, and finally being banned from the forum ... to what purpose, I don't know, but everybody can notice it. There are also programmed automata that cannot get out of their program; and a lot of it is based on clichés and personal attacks, and nothing else.
A general rule I try to follow myself, not always successfully, is to never saying anything in a post that I would not be prepared to say to the person's face, seated around a table with other people present, impartial people who can judge my words and manners, for themselves.
We, who believe in a God who does not like aggressive behavior and in Jesus, his Son, who will judge each person according to their actions, try to take these truths into account in life. Those who do not fear God or his judgment may try to be ethical, moral, fair, from time to time, but obviously, when their personal interests are at stake, nothing prevents them from behaving with total lack of humanity ... total, who is going to judge them? Only that there were local laws, and someone who actually enforces them.

I, for example, have reported insults and one-line posts made just to make fun of my comments... and nothing has happened. If it was against me for the same reason, surely I would have had a warning. This is how this world works, until the kingdom of God fixes it.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #7

Post by Miles »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:49 pm I've listened to this debate several times over the years, it was broadcast by the BBC on radio a great many years ago.

Its a debate on the existence of God between two very respected intellectuals, Bertrand Russel and Frederick Copleston. Each of these men wrote a comprehensive history of philosophy and were well versed in philosophy, logic, history and so on, they were well matched.

What is striking is that neither party ever gets personal, they focus entirely on their opponents arguments, no petty insinuating, snide remarks or disparaging words.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell

If you prefer to skip the introductions and go right to the debate use this link.

Fr. Frederick C. Copleston vs Bertrand Russell - No Intro

So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?
Because my guess is that few here have been schooled in proper debate conduct and often get caught up in attacking their opponent, either initially or in defense, I don't find this at all unusual. From what I've seen this is so common in debate websites as to be hardly worth mentioning. As for Russel and Copleston, having no doubt engaged in countless debates, and being steeped in the rigors of philosophy I don't find it at all surprising that they conducted themselves as gentleman and adhered to proper debate behavior in their face-offs.

So, can we debate respectfully? Sometimes, sure, but don't count on it as a matter of course. Sometimes a *&%*#$^ is just a *&%*#$^. ;)


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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #8

Post by otseng »

I can sympathize with both sides on this. And neither side is guiltless in this area.

To everyone:
  • What is absolutely not allowed on this forum are personal attacks. At all costs, do not comment on another poster. If someone attacks you, report it and do not respond to it.
  • Avoid making general/sweeping comments without any support.
To Christians:
  • In the S&R subforum, use empirical evidence to support your arguments. Do not base your arguments on statements such as "science is based on faith", etc.
  • I would advise not using the Bible as evidence in this subforum.
To skeptics:
  • Do not accuse Christians of dishonest tactics or lying. Point out the fallacy of their argument without personal accusations.
  • Poor argumentation by creationists does not give you an excuse to resort to disrespectful comments.

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #9

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 4:49 pm So the question - why do so many debates in the Science and Religion area often end up getting personal and stray away from the pure hard logic of the topic itself?
The simple answer is that some don't care for just the facts or are too biased to accept it. You can break this down even further to see what would cause that, and we can say that people have pre-existing ideas that they want to be true. When this type of behavior occurs amongst a group, then it turns into 'partisanship'*. On some sites, debating is like a popularity contest. Sure, Creationists tend to be an easy example to spot out for this behavior, but I've experienced it from the atheist side as well depending on the topic. And please don't get me started with debates in the Politics section because that is many times worse than debates on scientific topics.

*Partisanship:
support of a person, group, party, or cause, especially when seen as biased or emotional.

Despite what many claim, logic or facts alone, will not fix this problem in a lot of cases. It will also take some psychology, as well. This is why I created a thread to help address some of that, like the following, Cognitive Biases vs. Logical Fallacies.
- Proud forum owner ∣ The Agnostic Forum

- As a non-partisan, I like to be on the side of truth. - AB

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Re: Can we debate respectfully?

Post #10

Post by Jose Fly »

otseng wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:31 pm Do not accuse Christians of dishonest tactics or lying. Point out the fallacy of their argument without personal accusations.
This is precisely what I was talking about in my earlier post. Why is it not against the rules to lie and be dishonest, but it is against the rules to point out when someone does it? One could take that as an indication that Christians are okay with lying and dishonesty, as long as no one calls them on it.

Seems a bit out of whack to me.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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