How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #181

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The bottom line here - and much of this thread serves as evidence for this - is that most if not all evolution advocates have completely discounted the possibility that evolution could be wrong.

Because they've done that they must then claim (or at least believe) that there are no significant evidential or epistemological problems facing the theory.

This is their position reached as a result of their own studies, research and so on, but if they are wrong then those methods they have used must be unreliable.

But if their methods are unreliable (i.e. majority is always right) that unreliability will itself preclude them from ever discovering that they are wrong!

This is the real evolution debate IMHO, it is the mindset, they way that people decide what to believe, it is deeply flawed when it comes to evolution.

If I asked a reasonably educated bunch of people to list the serious problems facing say general relativity, I'd get a list, if I asked this about cosmology I'd get a list, if I asked it about brain science I'd get a list, nobody would hesitate to share that information.

But when this is asked for evolution there is no such list and that's the problem with evolution.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #182

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:59 am See my recent replies to brunumb, if things are still unclear let me know.
The Barbarian wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:40 am Want to pick one of those, if you're still too shy to mention whatever you have in mind?
It's clear that the "problems" you keep taking about don't actually exist, and you're trying to find a way out of that mess. I even showed you some real problems that evolutionary scientists are working on now. You still don't seem willing to talk about it. The key to why people keep pointing it out, is that all of these message boards have lurkers who just come to look at the discussions without taking part in them.

So you're serving a useful purpose here. And it seems that's pretty much all for you.

]

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #183

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:22 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:59 am See my recent replies to brunumb, if things are still unclear let me know.
The Barbarian wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:40 am Want to pick one of those, if you're still too shy to mention whatever you have in mind?
It's clear that the "problems" you keep taking about don't actually exist, and you're trying to find a way out of that mess. I even showed you some real problems that evolutionary scientists are working on now. You still don't seem willing to talk about it. The key to why people keep pointing it out, is that all of these message boards have lurkers who just come to look at the discussions without taking part in them.

So you're serving a useful purpose here. And it seems that's pretty much all for you.

Every scientific theory has problems Barbarian, except of course evolution, did you really never wonder why that might be?

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #184

Post by The Barbarian »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:57 am The bottom line here - and much of this thread serves as evidence for this - is that most if not all evolution advocates have completely discounted the possibility that evolution could be wrong.
That would be pretty much like the possibility that gravity is wrong. We see populations evolving every day. You've confused the phenomenon with the theory that describes it. Remember what evolution is. "Change in allele frequencies in a population over time."

[quoteBecause they've done that they must then claim (or at least believe) that there are no significant evidential or epistemological problems facing the theory.[/quote]

I showed you a few problems in evolutionary theory that scientists are investigating now. You apparently don't know enough about the issue to discuss them. And from time to time, evolutionary theory is changed as new evidence requires. This probably looks like cheating to creationists whose methods are unreliable (i.e. our new revision of scripture is always right) that unreliability will itself preclude them from ever discovering that they are wrong!

This is the real evolution debate IMHO, it is the mindset, the way that creationists decide what to believe, it is deeply flawed when it comes to evolution.
If I asked a reasonably educated bunch of people to list the serious problems facing say general relativity, I'd get a list,
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory.
if I asked this about cosmology I'd get a list,
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory.
if I asked it about brain science I'd get a list, nobody would hesitate to share that information.
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory.
But when this is asked for evolution there is no such list and that's the problem with evolution.
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory. I see a problem here, but it's not with evolutionary theory...
Last edited by The Barbarian on Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #185

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #183]
If I asked a reasonably educated bunch of people to list the serious problems facing say general relativity, I'd get a list, if I asked this about cosmology I'd get a list, if I asked it about brain science I'd get a list, nobody would hesitate to share that information.

But when this is asked for evolution there is no such list and that's the problem with evolution.
Well, you've certainly consistently refused to provide a list when it comes to evolution, despite using its existence as the basis for your own objections and complaints. Such lists do exist of course, many of them, especially by religious groups who see evolution as a threat to a creation myth, or that humans are special creatures, or some other issue that evolution counters. But if the objections were valid, evolution would be overturned or replaced with a better explanation for how life diversified on this planet, and that has yet to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... eationist/
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #186

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:53 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #183]
If I asked a reasonably educated bunch of people to list the serious problems facing say general relativity, I'd get a list, if I asked this about cosmology I'd get a list, if I asked it about brain science I'd get a list, nobody would hesitate to share that information.

But when this is asked for evolution there is no such list and that's the problem with evolution.
Well, you've certainly consistently refused to provide a list when it comes to evolution, despite using its existence as the basis for your own objections and complaints. Such lists do exist of course, many of them, especially by religious groups who see evolution as a threat to a creation myth, or that humans are special creatures, or some other issue that evolution counters. But if the objections were valid, evolution would be overturned or replaced with a better explanation for how life diversified on this planet, and that has yet to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... eationist/
You objected recently to my use of the term "atheist" and I accepted that objection, perhaps you'll now do the same and avoid "creationist".

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #187

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

The Barbarian wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:47 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:57 am The bottom line here - and much of this thread serves as evidence for this - is that most if not all evolution advocates have completely discounted the possibility that evolution could be wrong.
That would be pretty much like the possibility that gravity is wrong. We see populations evolving every day. You've confused the phenomenon with the theory that describes it. Remember what evolution is. "Change in allele frequencies in a population over time."

[quoteBecause they've done that they must then claim (or at least believe) that there are no significant evidential or epistemological problems facing the theory.
I showed you a few problems in evolutionary theory that scientists are investigating now. You apparently don't know enough about the issue to discuss them. And from time to time, evolutionary theory is changed as new evidence requires. This probably looks like cheating to creationists whose methods are unreliable (i.e. our new revision of scripture is always right) that unreliability will itself preclude them from ever discovering that they are wrong!

This is the real evolution debate IMHO, it is the mindset, the way that creationists decide what to believe, it is deeply flawed when it comes to evolution.
If I asked a reasonably educated bunch of people to list the serious problems facing say general relativity, I'd get a list,
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory.
if I asked this about cosmology I'd get a list,
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory.
if I asked it about brain science I'd get a list, nobody would hesitate to share that information.
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory.
But when this is asked for evolution there is no such list and that's the problem with evolution.
I gave you a list for evolutionary theory. I see a problem here, but it's not with evolutionary theory...
[/quote]

I did not see your list, I apologize, can you repeat it or point me at the post that contains it?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #188

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Just FYI I'm finished with this thread, I have nothing more to add and my position on this entire subject is clear I think.

Thanks for engaging with me, all those who did.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #189

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:39 am Who decides if what I show you does or does not prove my case? who decides if what I show you is or is not a "winning" case? you? me? a majority vote?
The 'burden of proof' is a term which requires you to at least support the claims you are making. Absolute proof is not required and does not even apply in science. You continue to make claims about alleged flaws in evolutionary theory, even to say that it has been falsified, but when pressed to to back up your claims you simply refuse. Please don't demand from us what you are not prepared to do yourself.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #190

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:44 am
DrNoGods wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:26 am The biggest issue you have so far, in my view, is that you won't get specific on these objections to evolution you keep mentioning, and continue to dodge that issue at every turn.
Because there's no point, the issues I raise - by your definition - will not tally with the "scientific community" and it's "consensus" and since that is your criteria for evaluating the validity of a scientific claim you'll conclude I am wrong so what's the point?
In which case there was clearly no point in you raising the issue in the science section of this forum. You present nothing to scrutinise, evaluate or discuss. Your opinions are noted. End of story.

<Climbs back out of the rabbit hole>
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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