Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

--

[Swami]

The only thing worse than ignorance is intolerance. Intolerance is when you don't want to learn and experience.
A true scientist should be tolerant especially when they do not have the answers.

It is a problem that everyone experiences but many mystics have discovered ways to get beyond it. Scientists have not overcome this problem.

When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start experiencing consciousness in its true form. When you experience with only consciousness then you experience reality without filters. You are a pure witness.

When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start imagining all sorts of things that bear no relation to reality.

You are unwilling to experience which is why it is not worth debating. If you experienced what I have then my work would be easier since you would already be open to receive my experiences.

Brunumb states it is imagination.

The yoga meditations open the door to mystical experiences. These experiences reveal the nature of consciousness along with fundamental reality. These experiences are real:

From The Varieties of Self-Transcendent Experience in Review of General Psychology (American Psychological Association):

Under certain circumstances, the subjective sense of one's self as an isolated entity can temporarily fade into an experience of unity with other people or one's surroundings, involving the dissolution of boundaries between the sense of self and other. Such transient mental states of decreased self-salience and increased feelings of connectedness are described here as self-transcendent experiences (STEs). These temporary mental states are proposed to be experienced along a spectrum of intensity that ranges from the routine (e.g., losing yourself in music or a book), to the intense and potentially transformative (e.g., feeling connected to everything and everyone), to states in between, like those experienced by many people while meditating or when feeling awe.

Mystical experiences are a particularly intense variety of STE. Some people report that during mystical experiences the sense of self can fall away entirely, creating a distinction-less sense of unity with one’s surroundings (Hood, 2002; James, 1902; Newberg & d’Aquili, 2000; Stace, 1960), though descriptions of mystical experiences also appear to vary across cultural contexts (Katz, 1978). James (1902) noted that mystical experiences involved: transiency (they are brief), ineffability (they are difficult or impossible to fully describe in language), passivity (they feel overwhelming), and have a noetic quality (they feel real; Yaden et al., 2017). In addition to the dramatic changes to one’s sense of self, mystical experiences can change other fundamental aspects of consciousness, such as the senses of time and space (Hood, 1975; James, 1902; MacLean, Leou

Linda's first-hand report from Yoga International:

I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

It wasn't as if I was the universe. I really was the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed.

[JoeyKnothead]

The only thing worse than ignorance is intolerance. Intolerance is when you don't want to learn and experience.
A true scientist should be tolerant especially when they do not have the answers.

I'll remember that the next time you refer to Hindu gods.

When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start experiencing consciousness in its true form.

The problem here is what "true form" is supposed to mean.

True, as in factual and observable by all conscious entities.

Or true, as in a subjective experience swamis and Hindu god worshippers are proud to fuss about.

When you experience with only consciousness then you experience reality without filters. You are a pure witness.

Yeah, can't be that religious filter you got going on, can it?

"Pure witness" is merely an attempt to declare one's "witness" superior to that of another.

It's the flim-flamery of religious proponents who can't show they speak truth.

You are unwilling to experience which is why it is not worth debating. If you experienced what I have then my work would be easier since you would already be open to receive my experiences.

I propose if your methodology were reliably repeatable, there's be no need for debate.

Alas, those who can't show they speak truth try to preemptively cut the debate - by declaring others unwilling to do the claimant's work for em.

The yoga meditations open the door to mystical experiences. These experiences reveal the nature of consciousness along with fundamental reality.

They merely provide a means for folks to explore their own consciousness, their own psychology, while offering nothing more profound than, "well that was cool. Y'all oughta try it."

[quote
These experiences are real:

...snip reporting of personal, subjective, anecdotal tales.

That some report profound change and insight speaks more of their psychology than anything transferrable to humans or society as a whole.

Hindu mythology has no corner on the market to the -ahem- purely subjective experience of what it means to achieve a "higher level of consciousness".

I find profound insight when I do me some shrooms. That's no reason to promote their use as the only avenue to profundity. But there is the benefit of the cows not roaming the streets cause we think they're sacred.

It's an arrogance of ignorance to propose one's subjective feelings about reality or consciousness are superior to any that others may experience.

[Swami]

The only thing worse than ignorance is intolerance. Intolerance is when you don't want to learn and experience.
A true scientist should be tolerant especially when they do not have the answers.

I'll remember that the next time you refer to Hindu gods.

You are missing the point. If you are unwilling to go through a mystical experience then you can not speak on it one way or another.

My goal here is not even to promote my ideology but rather it is to get others to experience it for themselves.

[brunumb]

The only thing worse than ignorance is intolerance. Intolerance is when you don't want to learn and experience.
A true scientist should be tolerant especially when they do not have the answers.

It is a problem that everyone experiences but many mystics have discovered ways to get beyond it. Scientists have not overcome this problem.

When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start experiencing consciousness in its true form. When you experience with only consciousness then you experience reality without filters. You are a pure witness.

When you silence your mind and senses while in deep meditation, then you can start imagining all sorts of things that bear no relation to reality.

You are unwilling to experience which is why it is not worth debating. If you experienced what I have then my work would be easier since you would already be open to receive my experiences.

Brunumb states it is imagination.

The yoga meditations open the door to mystical experiences. These experiences reveal the nature of consciousness along with fundamental reality. These experiences are real:

From The Varieties of Self-Transcendent Experience in Review of General Psychology (American Psychological Association):

Under certain circumstances, the subjective sense of one's self as an isolated entity can temporarily fade into an experience of unity with other people or one's surroundings, involving the dissolution of boundaries between the sense of self and other. Such transient mental states of decreased self-salience and increased feelings of connectedness are described here as self-transcendent experiences (STEs). These temporary mental states are proposed to be experienced along a spectrum of intensity that ranges from the routine (e.g., losing yourself in music or a book), to the intense and potentially transformative (e.g., feeling connected to everything and everyone), to states in between, like those experienced by many people while meditating or when feeling awe.

Mystical experiences are a particularly intense variety of STE. Some people report that during mystical experiences the sense of self can fall away entirely, creating a distinction-less sense of unity with one’s surroundings (Hood, 2002; James, 1902; Newberg & d’Aquili, 2000; Stace, 1960), though descriptions of mystical experiences also appear to vary across cultural contexts (Katz, 1978). James (1902) noted that mystical experiences involved: transiency (they are brief), ineffability (they are difficult or impossible to fully describe in language), passivity (they feel overwhelming), and have a noetic quality (they feel real; Yaden et al., 2017). In addition to the dramatic changes to one’s sense of self, mystical experiences can change other fundamental aspects of consciousness, such as the senses of time and space (Hood, 1975; James, 1902; MacLean, Leou

Linda's first-hand report from Yoga International:

I was home alone, walking through the living room, not thinking of anything in particular, when suddenly my consciousness erupted. It no longer ended at the surface of my body but expanded outward, filling the surrounding space. I experienced everything around me as inside me and absolutely identical to myself. I was no longer Linda Johnsen; I was everything. The bliss of that single moment was beyond description.

It wasn't as if I was the universe. I really was the universe. It happened spontaneously, and even though it only lasted a few seconds, I emerged from it changed forever. Any confidence I had in the materialistic scientific paradigm collapsed.

None of that is indicative of the experiences revealing any truth about reality. People meditate and have unusual experiences. Meh.

[JoeyKnothead]

The only thing worse than ignorance is intolerance. Intolerance is when you don't want to learn and experience.
A true scientist should be tolerant especially when they do not have the answers.

I'll remember that the next time you refer to Hindu gods.

You are missing the point. If you are unwilling to go through a mystical experience then you can not speak on it one way or another.

I've gone through 'mystical experiences'. None of which can be shown to be any more enlightening than reading a good book.

My goal here is not even to promote my ideology but rather it is to get others to experience it for themselves.

You promote your ideology by asking others to "go through a mystical experience".

[William]

[Replying to Swami in post #263]

My goal here is not even to promote my ideology but rather it is to get others to experience it for themselves.

Is that a realistic goal?

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Swami in post #260]

Scientists have answered a lot of little things, but they have not explained the origins and nature of consciousness, life, and the Universe. This is a big hole.

A hole that is constantly being researched using tools that are always improving and being developed. Just because these are open research problems does not mean the answers are somehow tied to the supernatural or that this category of explanation can be justified over any other (eg. a materialistic one). Any unsolved problem is open to hypotheses, and the idea that consciousness is something special and mysterious is just as open as an explanation as that consciousness is nothing more than an emergent property of a working brain. Neither has been proven to be correct, or incorrect, but to me the preponderance of the evidence points to the latter explanation.

[Swami]

Replying to Swami in post #263]

My goal here is not even to promote my ideology but rather it is to get others to experience it for themselves.

Is that a realistic goal?

I believe so. Any true scientists would understand that I am not asking for anyone to do anything different than what is done in field research.

My very first discussion on this website has 30,000 views. There I encountered only a handful of skeptics. Two of those members tried to bully me into a debate only to upset themselves after I didn't fall for it. I am reminded that I have to debate but where is the civility in bullying?

Out of the handful of skeptics, many more thousands were willing to learn. I care more about reaching that silent majority.

[Replying to Swami in post #260]

Scientists have answered a lot of little things, but they have not explained the origins and nature of consciousness, life, and the Universe. This is a big hole.

A hole that is constantly being researched using tools that are always improving and being developed. Just because these are open research problems does not mean the answers are somehow tied to the supernatural or that this category of explanation can be justified over any other (eg. a materialistic one). Any unsolved problem is open to hypotheses, and the idea that consciousness is something special and mysterious is just as open as an explanation as that consciousness is nothing more than an emergent property of a working brain. Neither has been proven to be correct, or incorrect, but to me the preponderance of the evidence points to the latter explanation.

Everything I have offered is very testable and provable. Mystical experiences open the door to a whole host of phenomenon that many great mystics are known for.

Scientists and author Dr. Dean Radin, from his book Supernormal (pg. 8, 9, 110)

Classic yoga texts, such as Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, written about two thousand years ago, tell us in matter- of-fact terms that if you sit quietly, pay close attention to your mind, and practice this diligently, then you will gain supernormal powers. These advanced capacities, known as siddhis, are not regarded as magical; they're ordinary capacities that everyone possesses. We're just too distracted most of the time to be able to access them reliably.

Patanjali writes that the siddhis are attained after mastery of the last three steps of the eightfold path: the ability to simultaneously sustain concentration, meditation, and samadhi at will. Sustained in this context means holding a highly focused, unwavering, deeply absorbed meditative state as opposed to obsessive mental chattering indefinitely, if one so wishes.

Considering that beginning meditators may be satisfied to hold an unwavering focus for ten seconds, being able to do this for fifteen minutes at a time may seem incredible; for hours without end is practically incomprehensible. But that's the level of mental control said to be required to exercise and attain the siddhis on demand.

Depending on the nature of the object one is absorbed into during samyama, different siddhis are said to arise. This is not due to magical incantations, but a natural consequence of merging with the object of focus. For example, if one focuses on another person, in samyama one becomes the other person. The siddhi that arises is what we would call telepathy.

In deep states of the absorptive mind meld, whether yogic or Vulcan, holistic reality reigns. You are no longer two people, but one and the same.

What scientists are lacking is field research. Experimentation on "others" is not enough.

[William]

[Replying to Swami in post #268]

So you are trying to reach scientists?

[JoeyKnothead]

Lol Dean Radin


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Radin