Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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[alexxcJRO]

I doubt it, at least while communication between you and me is limited to this forum. 

Q: Is there a way I or anyone else can falsify the hypothesis: “that your in communication with an ancient demon�?(Yes/No question)

Yes, as I already pointed out, the two links I gave in post #20 provide evidence. Anecdotal evidence has limited value when doing scientific experimentation, but it does have its place. For example, the scientific study of dreams is impossible without anecdotal evidence. 

That is not evidence.

That’s more personal ramblings and empty assertions.

I am not interested in more personal ramblings, empty assertions or things you write.

Q: Do you have evidence outside your own personal ramblings, personal opinions, empty assertions ?

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
viewtopic.php?t=6

"Ancient Demon supposes that the thought of communicating with an ancient demon is intimidating. Young demons are able to communicate. Ancient Demon is aware that John Human encourages young demon companions to communicate as much as possible with other humans. Ancient Demon believes that, if the man Alex or another reader of this communication wishes, a young demon could communicate."

I am not interested in you posing as a ancient demon or a young demon sir.

Just saying your not posing does not make it so.

Q: Is there a way to verify is not you, but an actual demon that spoke those words?

Communicating with ancestors is a natural human ability that that can be done by presumably anyone who isn't crippled by the cultural taboo about "voices in your head." Simply relax and think of, say, a grandparent. Words will come into your mind. That is your grandparent. (Of course anybody with a skeptical "show it to me" attitude will resist the quick conclusion that this is actually a grandparent, but you could increase your database by trying to communicate with all four grandparents.)

Tried it. Does not work. Nobody is speaking to me.

Q: Do you really hear voices speaking to you like you would hear a normal human?

Q: If yes to question above, what if your having an auditory hallucination? How can you rule that out?

Q: Have you ever seen a psychiatrist?

[John Human]

Q: Do you really hear voices speaking to you like you would hear a normal human?

Not exactly; "hearing voices" is convenient short-hand. My understanding is that "hearing voices" is actually quite common, especially when people are at the point of falling asleep.

Q: If yes to question above, what if your having an auditory hallucination? How can you rule that out?

The supposition of an auditory hallucination requires the further supposition that such a hallucination can continue coherently for many minutes. As far as I am aware, there is no such thing as an extended tell-a-long-story auditory hallucination. As I have mentioned before, I suggest the phenomenon of "channeling" as a loose comparison to my communications and the demons' stories I have been recording; an example is the Seth material at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Material[/quote]

Q: Have you ever seen a psychiatrist?

Your personal question, an implied sneer, would seem to be in violation of the forum rules. Your general hostile attitude brings to mind Plato's parable of the cave (from Chapter 7 of the Republic):

Men are chained in a cave, forced to stare straight ahead where they see shadows on the wall of a fire burning behind them that they cannot see. One man manages to escape. He first sees the actual fire, and then makes his way out of the cave into the sunlight. He decides to go back into the cave and tell his captive fellows, but they resist his account, comfortable in the prison of their illusions.

See https://medium.com/indian-thoughts/educ ... 7471260c50
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[alexxcJRO]

Ignoring most of my post looks rather bad.

Please don’t.

Here again:

1.

Q: Is there a way I or anyone else can falsify the hypothesis: “that your in communication with an ancient demon�?(Yes/No question)

2.
I am not interested in more personal ramblings, empty assertions or things you write.

Q: Do you have evidence outside your own personal ramblings, personal opinions, empty assertions ?

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
viewtopic.php?t=6

3.
I am not interested in you posing as a ancient demon or a young demon sir.

Just saying your not posing does not make it so.

Q: Is there a way to verify is not you, but an actual demon that spoke those words?

Not exactly; "hearing voices" is convenient short-hand. My understanding is that "hearing voices" is actually quite common, especially when people are at the point of falling asleep.

Sleep paralysis. Narcolepsy.

“Sleep paralysis is when, during waking up or falling asleep, a person is aware but unable to move or speak.[1][2] During an episode, one may hallucinate (hear, feel, or see things that are not there), which often results in fear.[1] Episodes generally last less than a couple of minutes.[2] It may occur as a single episode or be recurrent.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

“Narcolepsy is a long-term neurological disorder that involves a decreased ability to regulate sleep-wake cycles.[1] Symptoms include periods of excessive daytime sleepiness that usually last from seconds to minutes and may occur at any time.[1] About 70% of those affected also experience episodes of sudden loss of muscle strength, known as cataplexy.[1] These experiences can be brought on by strong emotions.[1]Less commonly, there may be inability to move or vivid hallucinations while falling asleep or waking up.[1] People with narcolepsy tend to sleep about the same number of hours per day as people without, but the quality of sleep tends to be worse.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcolepsy

As far as I am aware, there is no such thing as an extended tell-a-long-story auditory hallucination.

More personal ramblings, personal opinions, empty assertions and trying to create an unfalsifiable hypothesis(possible auditory hallucination could potentially falsify the hypothesis).
Evidence please.

Your personal question, an implied sneer, would seem to be in violation of the forum rules. Your general hostile attitude brings to mind Plato's parable of the cave (from Chapter 7 of the Republic):

Nah. Your imagining sir.

Hearing voices is usually a sign of mental illness(schizophrenia, bipolar disorder).

Q: How can you rule this possibility out? Do you do not question your own beliefs at all?

This is enforced by the fact that nobody else can hear or interact with your demon. Only you.

[John Human]

Ignoring most of my post looks rather bad.

Please don’t.

Your peremptory tone, yet again, is blatantly disrespectful. It is very clear that you are not arguing in good faith.

[alexxcJRO]

Your peremptory tone, yet again, is blatantly disrespectful. It is very clear that you are not arguing in good faith.

Ignoring again all of my post looks rather pathetic and bad.
Please don’t.

Here again:
1.

Q: Is there a way I or anyone else can falsify the hypothesis: “that your in communication with an ancient demon�?(Yes/No question)

2.
I am not interested in more personal ramblings, empty assertions or things you write.

Q: Do you have evidence outside your own personal ramblings, personal opinions, empty assertions ?

"5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. "
viewtopic.php?t=6

3.
I am not interested in you posing as a ancient demon or a young demon sir.

Just saying your not posing does not make it so.

Q: Is there a way to verify is not you, but an actual demon that spoke those words?

Not exactly; "hearing voices" is convenient short-hand. My understanding is that "hearing voices" is actually quite common, especially when people are at the point of falling asleep.

Sleep paralysis. Narcolepsy.

“Sleep paralysis is when, during waking up or falling asleep, a person is aware but unable to move or speak.[1][2] During an episode, one may hallucinate (hear, feel, or see things that are not there), which often results in fear.[1] Episodes generally last less than a couple of minutes.[2] It may occur as a single episode or be recurrent.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

“Narcolepsy is a long-term neurological disorder that involves a decreased ability to regulate sleep-wake cycles.[1] Symptoms include periods of excessive daytime sleepiness that usually last from seconds to minutes and may occur at any time.[1] About 70% of those affected also experience episodes of sudden loss of muscle strength, known as cataplexy.[1] These experiences can be brought on by strong emotions.[1]Less commonly, there may be inability to move or vivid hallucinations while falling asleep or waking up.[1] People with narcolepsy tend to sleep about the same number of hours per day as people without, but the quality of sleep tends to be worse.�
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcolepsy

As far as I am aware, there is no such thing as an extended tell-a-long-story auditory hallucination.

More personal ramblings, personal opinions, empty assertions and trying to create an unfalsifiable hypothesis(possible auditory hallucination could potentially falsify the hypothesis).
Evidence please.

Your personal question, an implied sneer, would seem to be in violation of the forum rules. Your general hostile attitude brings to mind Plato's parable of the cave (from Chapter 7 of the Republic):

Nah. Your imagining sir.

Hearing voices is usually a sign of mental illness(schizophrenia, bipolar disorder).

Q: How can you rule this possibility out? Do you do not question your own beliefs at all?

This is enforced by the fact that nobody else can hear or interact with your demon. Only you.

[2ndRateMind]

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

From what I can gather, we have yet to show that God exists. To ask if lesser spiritual beings exist, be they good or bad, angel or demon, would therefore seem somewhat premature.

But, for what it's worth, I remember a cartoon that depicted a person with an angel on his right shoulder, and a demon on his left, each whispering different proposals into his ears. I can relate to that. Not all my motivations are good, and not all of them are bad. But, in the end, it is I who make the final decision, and not my guardian angel or my personal devil.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[John Human]

Your peremptory tone, yet again, is blatantly disrespectful. It is very clear that you are not arguing in good faith.

Ignoring again all of my post looks rather pathetic and bad.
Please don’t.

Once again, your peremptory tone is incivil and disrespectful, and your refusal to engage with relevant points that I made previously, together with your unwarranted jump-to-conclusions false assumption that I am making up the communications that I have received serves to make it clear that you are not arguing or communicating in good faith, which means that your ongoing badgering, if it persists, will take on the color of harassment. Please desist. If anyone else would like to air any of the points you have raised, I would be pleased to answer.

[Clownboat]

Your peremptory tone, yet again, is blatantly disrespectful. It is very clear that you are not arguing in good faith.

Ignoring again all of my post looks rather pathetic and bad.
Please don’t.

Once again, your peremptory tone is incivil and disrespectful, and your refusal to engage with relevant points that I made previously, together with your unwarranted jump-to-conclusions false assumption that I am making up the communications that I have received serves to make it clear that you are not arguing or communicating in good faith, which means that your ongoing badgering, if it persists, will take on the color of harassment. Please desist. If anyone else would like to air any of the points you have raised, I would be pleased to answer.

I would like to take a stab at it...

Q: Is there a way I or anyone else can falsify the hypothesis: “that your in communication with an ancient demon�?(Yes/No question)

Q: Is there a way to verify that it is not you, but an actual demon that spoke those words?

Your response is much appreciated and I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
Be well!

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 29 by Clownboat]

Hearing voices should not automatically be labelled as a mental illness. I would only apply that label if the voices are established as hallucinations as opposed to telepathy. Other reasons to apply the label is if or when someone starts behaving unreasonably, unable to function normally in their daily living, or are a threat to themselves or others.

20 years from now, doctors will look back and realize that they've misdiagnosed many as suffering from a psychosis when in reality, these people may've really had undeveloped psychic abilities that very few can understand. Western medicine and science do not any good avenues to explore psychic abilities; anyone who comes out to a professional claiming to have these abilities are labelled as mentally ill from the start.

What's actually happening is fairies that have invaded our mind are trying to communicate with lost brain invading fairies around the world.

I don't know how to explain this without coming across as mocking you, which is not my intent. So here we go...
My fairie explanation has exactly as much evidence for it as your psychic explination seems to.

Do you accept my fairie explination? If not, please understand why your explination (or faith statement which is what it sounds like) is to be found wanting as well.

Do not mock the fairies though! You have been warned!
Be well.

[John Human]

Your peremptory tone, yet again, is blatantly disrespectful. It is very clear that you are not arguing in good faith.

Ignoring again all of my post looks rather pathetic and bad.
Please don’t.

Once again, your peremptory tone is incivil and disrespectful, and your refusal to engage with relevant points that I made previously, together with your unwarranted jump-to-conclusions false assumption that I am making up the communications that I have received serves to make it clear that you are not arguing or communicating in good faith, which means that your ongoing badgering, if it persists, will take on the color of harassment. Please desist. If anyone else would like to air any of the points you have raised, I would be pleased to answer.

I would like to take a stab at it...

Q: Is there a way I or anyone else can falsify the hypothesis: “that your in communication with an ancient demon�?(Yes/No question)

Q: Is there a way to verify that it is not you, but an actual demon that spoke those words?

Your response is much appreciated and I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
Be well!

I will respond by copying the answers that I already gave in post #28, and then I'll share some additional thoughts.

To the first question I replied: I doubt it, at least while communication between you and me is limited to this forum.

The second question that I answered in post #28 was a bit different, but the answer fits well, and serves as an extension of my answer to the first question:

Regarding the links in post #20, there are two separate issues that could be tested. First of all is the question of what exactly is going on, in my brain and in my mind, while I am typing a received communication from a demon, versus what is going on when, say, I am typing an e-mail to my sister, or typing a summary of the original May 1776 U.S. independence resolution, or typing creative fiction (something that I have never done as an adult), or writing a song (something that I have indeed done several times), or writing about past personal experiences.
[I'll add one more: when I am typing as I receive dictation from a human -- much as happens when I type the stories of presumed demons or ancestors.]

The second question is how to evaluate the contents of the received communications that I linked to in post #20. Can they plausibly be dismissed as a fabrication? Am I capable of or likely to invent the range of demon stories that I have shared? There is quite a lot of material there. If one posits the hypothesis that I fabricated the stories, the question of motivation comes up, which brings up the question of character assessment.

Adding to my previous thoughts, if it can indeed be convincingly established that I am not creating a fabrication as I type the stories of demons and ancestors, there remains the further question of the outside source of the story. Can it be demonstrated that the source is a demon and not something/someone else? Is Occam's razor insufficient? Once again, the example of the Seth material comes to mind: Is this indeed some sort of spiritual being that is not a demon? The Wikipedia page for the Seth material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Material

One final thought: Once again, this type of communication is comparable to dreams, the study of which always relies in part on anecdotal evidence. If Ancient Demon "talks" to you and you hear, then the only evidence that anyone else has is your testimony, for whatever it's worth, unless a demon talks to THAT person and convinces them. Sort of like my rainbow example -- you can't PROVE the existence of a rainbow to the guy with his head in the hole in the ground, but if he looks at a rainbow for himself, you don't have to.
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