The meaning of evidence

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Sherlock Holmes

The meaning of evidence

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This thread is to discuss the meaning of the term "evidence" particularly with respect to claims made by evolution advocates.

The reason I started this thread is that I often see - what I regard as - a conflation of consistent with and evidence for. If we are to make reasonable inferences and maintain objectivity and avoid making assumption unwittingly then the more precisely we define "evidence" the better I think.

The biggest risk here is to imply that some observation P is evidence for X and only X, rather than evidence for X and Y or Z. Unless we are on our guard we can informally exclude reasonable possibilities Y and Z and so on. Now the observation P might well be evidence for X and only X, but unless that is soundly established we simply can't assume that.

If we mistakenly regard P as evidence for X and only X then we fall into the trap of believing that P can only be observed if X was the cause.

This is exemplified by an analogy I recently put together that I think warrants its own thread, so here it is:


Consider this jigsaw

Image


None of the circles overlap, we can see this when we can see the totality of the jigsaw. But if we already believed for some reason or other, that they must overlap and we only had twenty random pieces and never see the rest, we could make up a jigsaw (theory) where we "fill in the blanks" so to speak and "show" that we sometimes have overlapping circles.

We'd be absolutely right too in saying the twenty pieces were consistent with an image that has overlapping circles, but we'd be dead wrong to say the twenty pieces are evidence of overlapping circles, because as we know, none of the circles actually do overlap.

So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #31

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:55 pm No, my idea of a debate is to actually quote what my opponent said not paraphrase.
What did I mischaracterize? Be specific.
At no point have we had a conversation that is accurately represented by what you wrote above, this is a strawman, yet another strawman argument.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #32

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:57 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:55 pm No, my idea of a debate is to actually quote what my opponent said not paraphrase.
What did I mischaracterize? Be specific.
At no point have we had a conversation that is accurately represented by what you wrote above, this is a strawman, yet another strawman argument.
This is just plain weird.

You claimed the fossil record "doesn't seem to have a single example of gradual evolutionary change".

I posted examples of gradual evolutionary change in the fossil record.

You ignored them.

Then after a couple of days, you repeated "The fossil record is everywhere discontinuous".


Is that your idea of a "debate"?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #33

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:03 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:57 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:55 pm No, my idea of a debate is to actually quote what my opponent said not paraphrase.
What did I mischaracterize? Be specific.
At no point have we had a conversation that is accurately represented by what you wrote above, this is a strawman, yet another strawman argument.
This is just plain weird.

You claimed the fossil record "doesn't seem to have a single example of gradual evolutionary change".

I posted examples of gradual evolutionary change in the fossil record.

You ignored it.
Please link to the post in question, if I did not reply then I might have overlooked it, no need to assume it was deliberately ignored.

But I must point out to you that we are not dealing with an objective disagreement Jose, if you think we are then that might explain much of the confusion you seem to be having. If you regard the fossil record or parts thereof as exhibiting continuity and I do not, then we can only leave it at that, for all we know you are subject to confirmation bias. I do not have to agree with your opinions nor you mine, we likely interpret the same data differently and I see no reason to revert insulting me or making generic disparaging remarks about "creationists" and so on.

I really do not think that trying to characterize our disagreements as being due to some fundamental intellectual deficiency on my part, is helpful.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #34

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:24 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:03 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:57 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:56 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:55 pm No, my idea of a debate is to actually quote what my opponent said not paraphrase.
What did I mischaracterize? Be specific.
At no point have we had a conversation that is accurately represented by what you wrote above, this is a strawman, yet another strawman argument.
This is just plain weird.

You claimed the fossil record "doesn't seem to have a single example of gradual evolutionary change".

I posted examples of gradual evolutionary change in the fossil record.

You ignored it.
Please link to the post in question, if I did not reply then I might have overlooked it, no need to assume it was deliberately ignored.

But I must point out to you that we are not dealing with an objective disagreement Jose, if you think we are then that might explain much of the confusion you seem to be having. If you regard the fossil record or parts thereof as exhibiting continuity and I do not, then we can only leave it at that, for all we know you are subject to confirmation bias. I do not have to agree with your opinions nor you mine, we likely interpret the same data differently and I see no reason to revert insulting me or making generic disparaging remarks about "creationists" and so on.

I really do not think that trying to characterize our disagreements s being due to some fundamental deficiency on my part is helpful.
Nope, I see that as a load of crap.

When I posted examples of observed speciation events, you ignored them. When Barbarian posted examples of pre-Cambrian/Cambrian transitions, you ignored them. And now after I posted examples of gradual transitions in the fossil record, you've ignored them as well. Just above I asked if you thought what had transpired in this thread constituted a debate, and you ignore that. Earlier you said I should start a thread on whether you agree that evolutionary mechanisms have been observed to generate new traits, abilities, genetic sequences, and species...so I did, and you ignored it.

Your pattern of behavior is quite well established.

That's why I pivoted to talking about the causes of this behavior. There was nothing else left to do (except perhaps throw up my hands, say "this is too stupid to bother with", and do something else).
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #35

Post by Diagoras »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:24 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:03 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:57 pm At no point have we had a conversation that is accurately represented by what you wrote above, this is a strawman, yet another strawman argument.
This is just plain weird.

You claimed the fossil record "doesn't seem to have a single example of gradual evolutionary change".

I posted examples of gradual evolutionary change in the fossil record.

You ignored it.
Please link to the post in question, if I did not reply then I might have overlooked it, no need to assume it was deliberately ignored.

But I must point out to you that we are not dealing with an objective disagreement Jose, if you think we are then that might explain much of the confusion you seem to be having. If you regard the fossil record or parts thereof as exhibiting continuity and I do not, then we can only leave it at that, for all we know you are subject to confirmation bias. I do not have to agree with your opinions nor you mine, we likely interpret the same data differently and I see no reason to revert insulting me or making generic disparaging remarks about "creationists" and so on.

I really do not think that trying to characterize our disagreements as being due to some fundamental intellectual deficiency on my part, is helpful.
I've been following along, as there have been some interesting points being made about 'competing theories'. However, this particular exchange seems straightforward to resolve by re-reading the entire thread: it's not yet grown to an unwieldy mix of tangents.

Here's what I found:

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:46 pm Except, as you like to sometimes point out, this is a debate forum.

Is your idea of "debate" actually......?

"X doesn't exist."

Here are examples of X.

"I disagree with you."

FYI, I've been on formal debate teams, and your sort of response is scored as a concession on your part and a win for me.
Let’s see:

"X doesn't exist."
This related to a continuous fossil record.

“Here are examples of X.”

It’s fairly clear that from Post #6, some examples of continuous fossil records were presented:
Jose Fly wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:46 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:43 am this reminds me of the fragmentary and discontinuous nature of world's fossil record, in that it doesn't seem to have a single example of gradual evolutionary change, very much like the jigsaw analogy I think.
Yes there is.

EVOLUTION AT SEA COMPLETE FOSSIL RECORD FROM THE OCEAN UPHOLDS DARWIN'S GRADUALISM THEORIES

Tony Arnold and Bill Parker compiled what may be the largest, most complete set of data on the evolutionary history of any group of organisms, marine or otherwise. The two scientists amassed something that their land-based colleagues only dreamed about: An intact fossil record with no missing links.

<snip>
Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion.
Or....

Parallel gradualistic evolution of Ordovician trilobites
Then we wait until Post 21 to hear a form of "I disagree with you.", where we see:
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:53 pmThe fossil record is everywhere discontinuous, how can you use that to insist that the process that led to the fossils was continuous?
And finally, from Post #25:
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:26 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:32 pm Are you suggesting I am struggling with mental illness and that you are picking on me because of that Jose?
No. I'm saying I'm struggling to understand your behavior. I've only seen this level of denialism a handful of times before...where someone says something like "X doesn't exist", they're shown examples of the existence of X, they completely ignore it, wait a bit, and then repeat "X doesn't exist" as if no one had ever shown them a thing.
<emphasis mine>

Seems Jose Fly posted a reasonable summary of the exchange in that last post.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #36

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

I've grown tired of the increasingly rude personal attacks, mischaracterizations, baseless accusations and insults, I do not enjoy this kind of environment so I'm taking a break.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #37

Post by Diagoras »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:24 pm If you regard the fossil record or parts thereof as exhibiting continuity and I do not, then we can only leave it at that
Perhaps in a conversation around the dinner table, that would be acceptable.

Here, in a debate forum, your statement is tantamount to an admission that you have no argument. The claim is that the fossil record or parts thereof exhibit continuity. Jose Fly presented evidence to support the affirmative. The closest you came to any kind of rebuttal was to say that the evidence might be subject to 'confirmation bias', but you didn't set out any logical steps (or competing evidence) to show us why this was the case. Such an unsupported claim in a debate can be dismissed until such time as support can be provided.

If this were a competitive debate, you'd lose - pure and simple.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #38

Post by Diagoras »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:57 pm I've grown tired of the increasingly rude personal attacks, mischaracterizations, baseless accusations and insults, I do not enjoy this kind of environment so I'm taking a break.
We posted at the same time, so I didn't see this before submitting my response.

If you do read my last couple of posts, I hope you'll give them due consideration before returning. Hopefully they might help you gain a different perspective.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #39

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Diagoras wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:57 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:24 pm If you regard the fossil record or parts thereof as exhibiting continuity and I do not, then we can only leave it at that
Perhaps in a conversation around the dinner table, that would be acceptable.

Here, in a debate forum, your statement is tantamount to an admission that you have no argument.
Before I leave. This is the kind of accusation I mean. I have presented my arguments, my reasons for the views I hold, the record is accessible in the history. That these may have failed to change your opinion does not detract from that fact, that my opinion differs from yours is a fact of life. I have not done anything wrong just because you do not accept my arguments. The incessant attacks on me and my character my mental health and so on all because you do not like my views, is frankly disgusting.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #40

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:41 pm Nope, I see that as a load of crap.
I'm sorry you feel that way.

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